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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
 Posted - 05/06/2007 : 12:26:46
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Hi Jim,
quote:
Jerry, I almost sense you are mad, I sure hope you are not.
No, I'm not mad. I just want you to believe the rest of the bible also. I can paste Romans and Galatians here just like you:
Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
In: Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
But after I paste them then I can say:
OK, now let's compare these scriptures that tell us about salvation by grace through faith with ones that don't like:
Romans 2,
"1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."
Or we can compare them to what James said in James 2:
"17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
"20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"
"21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
But you say, when I do this I am not rightly dividing. You say that I am taking verses out of context when I believe they mean what they say. You feel that I should not compare Romans and Galatians with the scriptures that go against them.
Jim, the next time we have a discussion on whatever topic it may be, we are going to run across the same problems. We are not going to agree on what the scripture says, it means. I believe the bible means what it says, and it needs to be rightly divided and this is done by comparing spiritual things with spiritual as Paul said it should be done.
In Christ,
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2007 : 11:48:57
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Jerry, good morning. At least we both agree the bible is the standard and we must believe what it says.
Why would I say you did not rightly divide??? Jerry, it is because you have made a blanket statement that Paul was talking about salvation in the age of grace period. When the text in Romans 4 clearly is teaching about salvation in other ages unless, Abraham and David are in this age of grace. I must draw my conclusions on what the scriptures teach not on what Jerry said they teach.
As for the Romans 2 passage if you continue to read it in context, you find that Paul does not make any dispesational change until Chapter 3 verse 21.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law has been revealed, being witnessed to by the Law and the Prophets,
So when you read the whole passage in context, which any right divider should do, you see that he gives the standard for being saved by works in the second chapter, and as you continue on you see that he makes it clear that NO ONE reaches that standard in third chapter.
Rom 3:9 What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
Rom 3:10 Just as it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one,
Rom 3:11 There is none who understands; there is none who seeks God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they became unprofitable; there is not one doing kindness, there is not so much as one."
Rom 3:13 "Their throat is an opened grave; with their tongues they deceived"; " the poison of asps is under their lips";
Rom 3:14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Rom 3:16 Ruin and misery are in their ways;
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace they did not know.
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Rom 3:19 Now we know that as many things as the law says, it speaks to those under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by works of the law no flesh shall be justified in His sight, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.
We rightly divided by reading things in context and allowing the scriptures to show us when to divide and when not to divide.
So the fact that you do not read all the information and want to stop short to prove your point by just reading Romans 2, is another specific reason why I say you are not rightly dividing.
Now you mentioned the James 2 passage. Once again I would ask you does the word Justified always mean the same thing? Of course not, for example:
1Ti 3:16 And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and was received up in glory.
This verse says that God in the flesh was justified. There are at least two meanings for justified, one is to be made righteoues or declared righteous and the other one is to be demonstrated as righteous.
Which one do you think applies to Christ, the works that He did in the Spirit were seen by angels and they demonstrated that He was righteous.
With Abraham in James we are talking about a man that was already made righteous by believing at least 26 years ealier, we know this because Genesis and Paul both say he was righteous because of his faith. Now we are talking about a work that is being done by a righteous man, one that had been made righteous, in James Abraham's work is demonsrating that he is righteous.
There is no conflict with what Paul is teaching, they are talking about two different events and two different types of being justified. One is by faith alone (Paul), the other is by faith plus works (James). You are saved by the first type of justification, the second type takes faith, which shows you were justified in the first sense and works, which hen demonstrated that you really were saved. The two go hand in hand.
The purpose of faith is for God to do good works in a believer, if a believer does not have those good works, there is no way to demonsrate that he is saved, even if he actually is saved.
I am sure you know believers in this age that are saved, but since they have no works they do not demonsrate they are saved. Their faith is dead, it does not do what it was meant to do. It is no longer able to function as it was meant to, it is dead. Are those people still saved? Of course they are, but God wants them to walk in good works Eph 3:10, and if they do walk in those good works they will demonstrate they are saved, and we will know their faith is alive and functioning.
You have never checked into what the words justified and dead actually mean.
When I point blank asked you to define these terms you refused to do it, why? There is no good reason to not be able to give me an answer.
The truth is you want Paul and Peter to disagree, but in truth they do not disagree, both are talking about Abraham in the same dispensation. They are not talking about two different dispenations.
You would have Paul's by faith alone applying to this age, in fact you have stated Paul in Romans is talking about salvation in this age. You also have James talking about salvation in the OT times, or actually with Abraham it would be before the OT times since he lived over 400 years before the OT.
Rightly dividing shows that both passages are talking about the same dispensation, but different events. That is how you rightly divide the passage. Now does these two passages talking about the same dispensation disagree with each other, because one teaches justification by faith, and the other justification by faith plus works? A very simple person understands these two concepts are opposites. There is no dispensational answer because they both are talking about the same dispensation! But the answer comes from studying to show ourselves approved. We need to check out context and word definitions. The context shows two different events one 26 years or more after the first. The first event is called the justified by faith alone event by Paul, and the second event is called the justified by faith pluse works event. Once we find out that justificatin can mean different things, such as Christ was Justified, verses us being justified. It it is easy to see that although there is no dispensational answer to this disagreement, there is a simple natural, solution.
The fact that you try to solve this problem dispensationally, when both passages talk about the same dispensation is another example of not rightly dividing the word.
I hope these specific examples of why I said you are not rightly dividing will help you to see what I meant.
In Christ,
Jim
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2007 : 18:53:44
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Hi Jim,
If you would like to continue this discussion, call me collect at 225-664-5739 or give me your phone number and I will call you or I can lock this topic.
Pick one.
I told you this was going to be an endless topic because you do not believe the bible means what it says.
You keep saying that I am avoiding you, and I keep saying you are avoiding me.
You say I do not rightly divide, I say you do not rightly divide.
You say I don't believe the bible means what it says, I say you don't believe the bible means what it says.
You say I take scripture out of context, I say you take scripture out of context.
I do not have the time to continue going over the same things over and over and over cutting and pasting when you are not going to believe the scriptures I give you.
Let's get this over with, call me or give me your number and I will call you. I have many things to go over with you and as I said it takes me over an hour to type something I can say in less than five minutes. All my teachings are based upon the King James Bible and your last post is getting away from that.
In Christ,
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2007 : 22:11:55
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Jerry, you are right, I did post in another translation, I want to assure you it was not done on purpose. I meant to be in KJV, but as you know I used the Majority Text, and forgot to change from the English Majority text to the KJV to do my post, please forgive me, it was not done to be disrespectful. I will repost those verses in the KJV below.
Jerry you asked:
Why would I say you did not rightly divide??? Jerry, it is because you have made a blanket statement that Paul was talking about salvation in the age of grace period. When the text in Romans 4 clearly is teaching about salvation in other ages unless, Abraham and David are in this age of grace. I must draw my conclusions on what the scriptures teach not on what Jerry said they teach.
As for the Romans 2 passage if you continue to read it in context, you find that Paul does not make any dispesational change until Chapter 3 verse 21.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
So when you read the whole passage in context, which any right divider should do, you see that he gives the standard for being saved by works in the second chapter, and as you continue on you see that he makes it clear that NO ONE reaches that standard in third chapter.
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
.
We rightly divided by reading things in context, and allowing the scriptures to show us when to divide and when not to divide.
So the fact that you do not read all the information and want to stop short to prove your point by just reading Romans 2, is another specific reason why I say you are not rightly dividing.
Now you mentioned the James 2 passage. Once again I would ask you does the word Justified always mean the same thing? Of course not, for example:
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
This verse says that God in the flesh was justified. There are at least two meanings for justified, one is to be made righteoues or declared righteous and the other one is to be demonstrated as righteous.
Which one do you think applies to Christ, the works that He did in the Spirit were seen by angels and they demonstrated that He was righteous.
With Abraham in James we are talking about a man that was already made righteous by believing at least 26 years ealier, we know this because Genesis and Paul both say he was righteous because of his faith. Now we are talking about a work that is being done by a righteous man, one that had been made righteous, in James Abraham's work is demonsrating that he is righteous.
There is no conflict with what Paul is teaching, they are talking about two different events and two different types of being justified. One is by faith alone (Paul), the other is by faith plus works (James). You are saved by the first type of justification, the second type takes faith, which shows you were justified in the first sense and works, which hen demonstrated that you really were saved. The two go hand in hand.
The purpose of faith is for God to do good works in a believer, if a believer does not have those good works, there is no way to demonsrate that he is saved, even if he actually is saved.
I am sure you know believers in this age that are saved, but since they have no works they do not demonsrate they are saved. Their faith is dead, it does not do what it was meant to do. It is no longer able to function as it was meant to, it is dead. Are those people still saved? Of course they are, but God wants them to walk in good works Eph 3:10, and if they do walk in those good works they will demonstrate they are saved, and we will know their faith is alive and functioning.
You have never checked into what the words justified and dead actually mean.
When I point blank asked you to define these terms you refused to do it, why? There is no good reason to not be able to give me an answer.
The truth is you want Paul and Peter to disagree, but in truth they do not disagree, both are talking about Abraham in the same dispensation. They are not talking about two different dispenations.
You would have Paul's by faith alone applying to this age, in fact you have stated Paul in Romans is talking about salvation in this age. You also have James talking about salvation in the OT times, or actually with Abraham it would be before the OT times since he lived over 400 years before the OT.
Rightly dividing shows that both passages are talking about the same dispensation, but different events. That is how you rightly divide the passage. Now does these two passages talking about the same dispensation disagree with each other, because one teaches justification by faith, and the other justification by faith plus works? A very simple person understands these two concepts are opposites. There is no dispensational answer, because they both are talking about the same dispensation! But the answer comes from studying to show ourselves approved. We need to check out context and word definitions. The context shows two different events one 26 years or more after the first. The first event is called the justified by faith alone event by Paul, and the second event is called the justified by faith pluse works event. Once we find out that justified can mean different things, such as when Christ was Justified, verses when we are justified. It it is easy to see that although there is no dispensational answer to this disagreement, there is a simple natural, solution.
The fact that you try to solve this problem dispensationally, when both passages talk about the same dispensation is another example of not rightly dividing the word.
I hope these specific examples of why I said you are not rightly dividing will help you to see what I meant.
Jerry I hope this repost of what I meant, using the KJV will make it clearer to you.
Jerry, you said I said you did not believe the bible.
I am not sure, if I ever said you did not believe the bible, but if I did I was wrong, I don't believe that and never meant to say that. I hope you understand I do believe that you believe the bible.
I did say I did not believe you were rightly dividing on this issue, and you never replied back to those specific examples that I gave, and tried to explain to me from the scriptures how you were rightly dividing them. As a teacher, shouldn't you do this?
Jerry once again, all I am asking is for you to agree to some kind of format, for a telephone discussion, I have given you an example of one that I thought was fair,(allowing you to bring up the first verse for discussion, and me the second, and taking turns) and I said if you do not like that format to give me an example of one that you thought was fair, why won't you do this?
If you do not want to agree to some format for talks maybe we should just agree to not post under this topic for a few weeks.
In Christ,
Jim
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MercyBreeze
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2007 : 22:49:02
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quote:
or I can lock this topic.
Couldn't help but notice this line.
What would cause you to lock the topic, if I may ask? 
"I have not yet been able to stereotype my theological views, and have ceased to expect ever to do so. The idea is preposterous. None but an omniscient mind can continue to maintain a precise identity of view and opinions. Finite minds, unless they are asleep or stultified by prejudice, must advance in knowledge. The discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds."
-- Charles Finney, The Word of Truth |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 06:17:43
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Hi Jeremy,
Jim does not believe the bible means what it says. We have discussed the same things over and over and over. As I mentioned to him, it takes me over an hour to type what I can say in less than five minutes. I do not have the time to type, and cut and paste scriptures if he is not going to believe them.
He refuses to compare spiritual things with spiritual. He has this belief that man was always saved by grace through faith without works and as you know there are many scriptures that go against this belief. He just refuses to believe them. Whenever I bring them up he says I'm taking them out of context and I don't rightly divide.
He wants me to just cover the scriptures that back up his belief and avoids the ones I give that go against his belief.
I told him that this was going to be an endless debate because he does not believe the bible means what it says and that is exactly what it has turned in to, an endless debate.
Therefore I have given him the option of calling me, letting me call him, or locking this topic. I'm waiting for his answer.
As long as he does not believe the scriptures I give him, there will be no end to this topic. I do not have the time for endless debates. I'm a teacher, I teach people that believe the bible means what it says. You can't teach people that do not believe the bible means what it says.
Jeremy, you know that I am a very patient man, but my patience wears thin with people that do not believe the scriptures mean what they say. Remember Shugart? How he would avoid the scripture you give him and just keep posting the same scriptures over and over to try to get you to believe the way he believes. This is what Jim does, just like Shugart.
Rather than having a final authority, Shugart had no final authority but himself and his beliefs and would use whatever bible he could to try to get his point across.
Jim has this belief. It doesn't matter to him what the rest of the bible says. He picks out the scriptures that match his belief and avoids the rest just like denominations do. Instead of changing his beliefs to match the bible he tries to change the bible to match his beliefs.
Therefore I have given him the option to call me to discuss the matter in more detail. I have many scriptures I want to run by him and see if he believes them or not. Or he can give me his number and I will call him or I can lock the topic. It's his choice, but him throwing the same scriptures at me over and over and over and him ignoring my responses are not going to cut the mustard. I have a ministry to run and don't have the time to have an endless debate with someone that does not believe the bible means what it says.
By the way, how did your finals go? Did you ace all your tests? How long do you have till you graduate?
In Christ,
Jerry
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MercyBreeze
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 09:14:58
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Jerry,
Finals went fine and I've got a year till graduation.
But the pertinent issue here is what would cause you to "lock a topic." If you'll recall, you left our forum because a topic was locked and you blamed me for having been "boxed in a corner" Biblically (which was a bold face lie that you convinced yourself was true). As a result, you went to another forum spreading lies about something that never happened (though I was impressed you didn't do it here). As well, you attacked me viciously in our forum in a post that I chose to leave intact for all readers to view.
The line, "so and so doesn't believe the Bible" is so old by now, Jerry, that it's becoming your staple of ignorance, I'm sorry to say. You've become so self-righteous that you don't even see it. Jim is one of the most solid "Bible-Believers" that I know in a world of many who don't even regard the Word as useful anymore. You, on the other hand, could be classified as a "Bible-Believer who Praises his own understanding of Bible Belief." And on that end, you've begun to think highly of your own knowledge of the Word... not the Word itself.
It really is garbage, Jerry. I've been reading this topic for the past 20 posts quite closely and YOU are the only one who seems to have lost the ability to trust the Word. You trust your understanding of it 100%. But when Jim presents something Biblically that you're not crazy about, you play as if he never even shared it. And as a result, you constantly look like the one who "doesn't believe Scripture." And yet... NEITHER JIM OR MYSELF OR ANYONE ELSE HERE would EVER SAY that YOU DON'T BELIEVE SCRIPTURE!
That's about as low as it gets in these forums, Jerry. Truly. These are BIBLE forums. When you accuse someone of "not believing the Word," that becomes your easy out so that you can excuse yourself from needing to continue the challenge. And you basically pit yourself against your opponent as saint vs. an enemy of God. And again, that's garbage, Jerry. You've lost common sense.
You've accused Jim of this, you've accused me of this, and when you do so, what is the point of continuing the discussion? There isn't, Jerry. For if Jim and myself (who you've accused viciously of "not believing the Bible") are not Bible Believers, then why bother continuing to make your case? Why not just throw us to the wolves? Or do you continue being nice in the hopes that we, the foolish enemies, might find our way back to the truth? In fact... why not just close the topic?
What a novel idea! 
Jerry, if Jim doesn't believe the Word of God, then he is an enemy of the cross. And if I am camped along side of him, then we are both enemies of the cross. So make up your mind. If you can't let this ignorant hogwash go, then do us a favor and delete us both from your forum and excuse us from the discussions.
Either we are brothers in Christ who simply see something different in the Word and are trying to figure out what it is we see... or we are flat-out enemies of the cross and have no business even talking to one another about the Scriptures. I know which one I am. Jim knows which one he is. But this is YOUR forum. And now you must decide which one we are.
I will not continue to sit by and watch you fill yourself up with lies about a fellow-Bible believer and pass them off in your small group as though they are true. You can remove me, delete this post, do whatever you think is necessary. But cut the garbage or cut the members you consider to be an enemy of the cross.
Jeremy
"I have not yet been able to stereotype my theological views, and have ceased to expect ever to do so. The idea is preposterous. None but an omniscient mind can continue to maintain a precise identity of view and opinions. Finite minds, unless they are asleep or stultified by prejudice, must advance in knowledge. The discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds."
-- Charles Finney, The Word of Truth |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 20:14:25
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Hi Jeremy,
Well, that was interesting.
So are you in agreement with Jim that salvation was always by faith alone and not of works? If you are, that's a new one on me.
By the way,
quote:
As a result, you went to another forum spreading lies about something that never happened (though I was impressed you didn't do it here)
what did I lie about? If you go back to Paul's forum you will see that it was Paul that brought up your name, not me. Nor was it I who started the subject on free speech forums. My bible tells me not to defraud my brother in any matter. If you feel that I defrauded you then I deeply apologize because that was never my intentions. If I'm not mistaken, I also mentioned that you were a great guy, which I think you are. I just disagree with your forum administration ethics, which I don't think is that big of a deal because everyone has the God given right to run their own forum the way they want to.
It would be very foolish on my part to try to teach people to know the love of Christ and then intentionally try to defraud my brethren. I, like you and everyone else that is saved will have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give an account of everything we have done in our body whether it be good or bad. This would include the things we say or the things we type.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I do not count you or Jim as an enemy of the cross, nor have I had any reason to.
quote:
Jerry, if Jim doesn't believe the Word of God, then he is an enemy of the cross. And if I am camped along side of him, then we are both enemies of the cross. So make up your mind. If you can't let this ignorant hogwash go, then do us a favor and delete us both from your forum and excuse us from the discussions.
I never said that Jim didn't believe the Word of God, I said that he does not believe it means what it says because he doesn't, and he has proven that to me. There are millions of people that believe the bible is the Word of God, and that his Word truly exists, but when you get into the scripture with them they don't believe it means what it says. This is typical. I'm not trying to cut down anyone. I meet these kind of people all the time, it is not unusual.
My father-in-law is a Baptist. I love him very much, but he does not believe the bible means what it says either. My wife doesn't even want me to talk scripture with him just to keep peace in the family, so very seldom do we ever talk about scripture. I would love to sit down with him and go over scripture, but I don't know if I can get him to believe it means what it says. He believes typical Southern Baptist doctrine. He believes the bible is the Word of God, and says he believe the bible, but when you get into the scripture with him he doesn't believe it means what it says. He believes all Democrats are going to hell for some strange reason. But he is saved, he has trusted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour.
He believes like Jim does, that salvation was always by faith and that works were never involved at any time throughout the ages.
But of course, I have Pentacostal relatives also that believe works were always involved.
quote:
It really is garbage, Jerry. I've been reading this topic for the past 20 posts quite closely and YOU are the only one who seems to have lost the ability to trust the Word.
This topic did not start 20 posts ago, in fact it didn't even start here in this challenge forum it started here:
http://forums.gracebiblestudy.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=250
So this topic has been going on for more than a month. I don't know if you would want to even bother going back over it, but if you do, you will see that the same things have been said over and over and over. It's going to be an endless topic.
I really would like to talk to Jim in person. I still have plenty of scripture I want to cover with him and plenty of questions that I want to ask him, but so far the scriptures that I have already given him he does not believe they mean what they say so I'm really wondering why I should bother copying and pasting anymore. It really is time consuming. That's why I want to talk to him in person. He's called me before, I just didn't get his number.
Are you chilled out yet?
I hope so, cause I need to ask you something. Are you familiar with the reign of the Persians? What about the Seder Olam? Secular history gives the reign of the Persians about 200 years but the Seder Olam only gives them a reign of about 56 years, a really big difference. Are you familiar with this yet? I need some help on trying to figure out something and I thought that with your knowledge of history you might be able to help me out.
You seem a little tiffed at me. I want us to be friends and stay friends. Please tell me exactly what I did wrong to you, or what I did to hurt you. I'm not the kind of person that goes around intentionally hurting people nor do I hold grudges against people. If it is very personal then e-mail me, - kingjames1611@cox.net. The incident that happened at your forum is a dead issue in my book and has been for a very long time. If we have a hatchet to bury then by all means let's bury it.
By the way, when I went to your forum to send you that last personal message I noticed the forum changes. Nice work, it looks good.
As I close, this post took me about 2 hours to type. This is why I want to talk to Jim in person. In 2 hours I could cover hundreds of scriptures and ask many questions too.
In Christ,
Jerry |
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MercyBreeze
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 21:25:23
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Jerry,
Most of the time, your ignorant line of "so and so doesn't believe the Bible" is more amusing than irritating. But today I just found it too much.
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Hi Jeremy,
Well, that was interesting.
So are you in agreement with Jim that salvation was always by faith alone and not of works? If you are, that's a new one on me.
This, again, shows your foolish logic. My argument on behalf of Jim has NOTHING to do with content and EVERYTHING to do with your conditioning of his belief. That is, you take a person's words and twist them around to say whatever you want them to say.
"Jeremy just came in supporting Jim, so he MUST believe everything that Jim believes! Makes sense!"
That's like saying, "2 + 3 = 5, and therefore 3 + 5 = 51." Just LISTEN or READ the things that people tell you. Don't add things in that make you feel better about your argument.
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By the way,
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As a result, you went to another forum spreading lies about something that never happened (though I was impressed you didn't do it here)
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what did I lie about?
That I was in some way "boxed into a corner" and therefore "closed the discussion" because I couldn't handle it Biblically. An absolute bold faced lie, Jerry. And I'm inclined to say that you know it was a lie, but the problem is... I don't really think you realize it was. Rather, you convince yourself of things that you want to believe in many cases, but fail to just read what is being written.
If, perhaps, you're inclined to admit that the reason that particular topic was closed was due to the affect it was having on someone OTHER than you... then we can admit being true to each other. For if ANYone actually read the topic that was closed (and several emailed me after you left), they came quickly to realize that I closed it on behalf of someone (not you, not me, not Jim) who had posted something very vicious and thus the topic was becoming quite problematic for readers of our discussion. My task there is to provide productive discussions... and when they cease to be productive and healthy, I close them down. You were not cast away, you were not reprimanded, you were not attacked. And yet you lashed out at me in a way that was totally uncalled for.
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If you go back to Paul's forum you will see that it was Paul that brought up your name, not me.
There are 15 G.R.A.C.E. related forums on the web, Jerry. I watch all of them. So whether you use my name or try to be elusive, everyone there knows who I am, just as I know who they are. And the trouble is... whether you used my name initially or used it later, you trashed me in the public forum of an administrative peer from G.R.A.C.E. Ministries. Not to mention... the trash you put out there was truly that... trash.
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Nor was it I who started the subject on free speech forums.
Nope. But you had no hesitation from jumping right in there to lash out in false claims.
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My bible tells me not to defraud my brother in any matter. If you feel that I defrauded you then I deeply apologize because that was never my intentions.
Defrauded me? No. You made up your own rendition of what happened. As though I had smacked you around and been a complete idiot of the Scriptures.
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If I'm not mistaken, I also mentioned that you were a great guy, which I think you are.
That's neat, Jerry, but calling someone a "nice guy" while at the same time referring to them erroneously as someone who can't handle a challenge in the Word when that was NOT the reason for the topic closure... that negates any "nice guy" statements that come out. You can't call someone "really cool" in one sentence and then spend the next paragraph preaching about how unethical and ungodly they handle themselves.
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I just disagree with your forum administration ethics, which I don't think is that big of a deal because everyone has the God given right to run their own forum the way they want to.
Were it to have been simply that you didn't feel it was appropriate for me to close the topic, then that would have been okay. But you made it much bigger than that. You attacked me in a post that you were almost begging me to delete. And within that post, you made claims about my handling of the Scriptures... not my administrative ability or inability.
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It would be very foolish on my part to try to teach people to know the love of Christ and then intentionally try to defraud my brethren. I, like you and everyone else that is saved will have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give an account of everything we have done in our body whether it be good or bad. This would include the things we say or the things we type.
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I'm sorry you feel that way, but I do not count you or Jim as an enemy of the cross, nor have I had any reason to.
Not in so many words, Jerry. But if we do not believe the Bible (which is what you have said over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over... did I mention that you've said it over and over and over and over?), and the Bible is the Word of God, then we have ceased to believe in all that is our salvation. And if we do not believe in the Word... then we are enemies of the Word. To which, we are not in your circle.
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Jerry, if Jim doesn't believe the Word of God, then he is an enemy of the cross. And if I am camped along side of him, then we are both enemies of the cross. So make up your mind. If you can't let this ignorant hogwash go, then do us a favor and delete us both from your forum and excuse us from the discussions.
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I never said that Jim didn't believe the Word of God, I said that he does not believe it means what it says because he doesn't, and he has proven that to me.
Absolutely foolish logic, Jerry. Absolutely foolish.
You have indeed said (over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over... do I need to say it again?) that Jim does not believe the Word of God. You've said the same about me. And at one time, in our previous discussions, when I called you out on this, you admitted it was an overused claim that wasn't helpful to a conversation. And why was it unhelpful? Because it's foolish and incorrect.
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There are millions of people that believe the bible is the Word of God, and that his Word truly exists, but when you get into the scripture with them they don't believe it means what it says.
On that type of ignorant logic, the EXACT thing could be said about you. For there are MANY occasions in conversations that I've had with you and others have had with you where particular Scriptures were ignored. Not ignored by me. Not ignored by Jim. But ignored by you. Do you not believe what the Bible says then? Of course not! You simply set aside those things that you feel are not relevant to your argument. As do others. So cut the garbage of falsely accusing men of the Word as though they do not believe the Bible... believe what it says... or whatever phrase you feel like using.
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This is typical. I'm not trying to cut down anyone. I meet these kind of people all the time, it is not unusual.
These kinds of people? What exactly are these kinds of people? For you've used the same arguments about me when they suited your position. I've been accused of not believing the Bible, Jim has been accused of not believing the Bible, and apparently you meet "people like this" all the time... so you really can't buddy up to me with the nice guy comments and ignore the fact that I am apparently "one of these kinds of people."
Your random use of "these people" only further perpetuates the error and false claim. Like I said, if we are "these people," then we perceived as enemies in your big picture.
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My father-in-law is a Baptist. I love him very much, but he does not believe the bible means what it says either.
Either? Like me, huh?
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My wife doesn't even want me to talk scripture with him just to keep peace in the family, so very seldom do we ever talk about scripture. I would love to sit down with him and go over scripture, but I don't know if I can get him to believe it means what it says. He believes typical Southern Baptist doctrine. He believes the bible is the Word of God, and says he believe the bible, but when you get into the scripture with him he doesn't believe it means what it says. He believes all Democrats are going to hell for some strange reason. But he is saved, he has trusted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour.
He believes like Jim does, that salvation was always by faith and that works were never involved at any time throughout the ages.
But of course, I have Pentacostal relatives also that believe works were always involved.
Okay, Jerry.
I'm gonna try to explain something VERY SIMPLE. So try not to overcomplicate it with your own rendition.
There are those who NEVER study Scripture who come to beliefs that are contrary to what you believe. Be it water baptism, tongues, or the gifts of healing... MANY people believe these things having never studied the Scriptures. And thus, it might be said about THESE that they have not believed such things because of the Word, but because of tradition.
Jim, on the other hand, is a fervent student of the Scriptures who reads and tests things on a regular basis fully placing faith in the Word of God as foundation. However, in his studies, he comes to different conclusions about faith than you do. Because he does not believe the Bible means what it says? NO. NO! NO! Because he is studying and not seeing the same thing that you're seeing.
If you're correct on faith being only a New Testament basis for salvation, then that can stand alone. But because someone who studies the Scriptures does not see that... does NOT mean that they do not believe the Scriptures. What's the problem? One of several possibilities.
1. You are wrong and don't see it.
2. They are wrong and don't see it.
3. Both of you are wrong and simply can't see it.
4. Someone is not making a strong enough case in the debate.
Both parties who oppose each other cannot be correct. You claim to be correct on this matter. You've studied the matter out quite extensively BELIEVING THE BIBLE MEANS WHAT IT SAYS. Jim has also studied the matter out quite extensively BELIEVEING THE BIBLE MEANS WHAT IT SAYS.
Point blank. That simple. Our understanding will OFTEN be very different on various issues and yet you are the ONLY person I've ever encountered who used this difference of understanding to make false claims about someone's belief in Scripture. And it's a false message.
It really needs to end, Jerry.
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It really is garbage, Jerry. I've been reading this topic for the past 20 posts quite closely and YOU are the only one who seems to have lost the ability to trust the Word.
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This topic did not start 20 posts ago, in fact it didn't even start here in this challenge forum it started here:
http://forums.gracebiblestudy.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=250
So this topic has been going on for more than a month. I don't know if you would want to even bother going back over it, but if you do, you will see that the same things have been said over and over and over. It's going to be an endless topic.
The point of my stating that I've been "following it" for 20 posts is not to say that I hadn't read the remaining posts, but happened to find time to BEGIN watching it about 20 posts ago. And it doesn't take much to figure out what's being said. My argument isn't about the content, but the manner in which you attack your opponent so carelessly.
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I really would like to talk to Jim in person. I still have plenty of scripture I want to cover with him and plenty of questions that I want to ask him, but so far the scriptures that I have already given him he does not believe they mean what they say so I'm really wondering why I should bother copying and pasting anymore. It really is time consuming.
Sure it's time consuming. But you are ignoring the Scriptures that he brings up. And that's the short and simple of it. You bring up all the things that fit your argument, but cease to acknowledge the things that he brings forward. It's not the first discussion I've seen you do this in, but I don't find it all that unreasonable. This is normal. People use the Scriptures that back up their argument all the time. You're not doing something new.
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That's why I want to talk to him in person. He's called me before, I just didn't get his number.
What you do over the phone is your business. I can only speak on what I see typed.
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Are you chilled out yet?
Chilled? You really need to see what's being said here. The "you don't believe the Bible" nonsense is an attack you've used on me for your convenience. You're now using it on Jim as you've done before. So I'm truly drawing a line in the sand. If Jim does not believe the Bible, then he is an enemy of the cross. And if you have made the same claim about me, then I am apparently alongside of him. You can't pull out the "Jerry/Jeremy vs. Jim defense." You've made false accusations of the exact same kind about both of us on more than one occasion throughout the past year. So you've got to figure out just exactly what kind of people you're talking with.
If I don't believe the Bible (as you so foolishly claim on many occasions), then don't proceed to talk with me as though we're good 'ole boys who love the Word while Jim is somehow on the outside looking in. Get the facts together and figure out who I am. If I am just simply a "nice guy" who has no credibility of belief in the Word, then we have nothing to discuss.
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I hope so, cause I need to ask you something. Are you familiar with the reign of the Persians? What about the Seder Olam? Secular history gives the reign of the Persians about 200 years but the Seder Olam only gives them a reign of about 56 years, a really big difference. Are you familiar with this yet? I need some help on trying to figure out something and I thought that with your knowledge of history you might be able to help me out.
You seem a little tiffed at me. I want us to be friends and stay friends. Please tell me exactly what I did wrong to you, or what I did to hurt you. I'm not the kind of person that goes around intentionally hurting people nor do I hold grudges against people.
Did you hurt me? Sure you did.
On the day that I closed the topic, you sent me a follow up private message that seemed you were willing to continue the discussion that had been public just between us. I was willing to do so. But within 24 hours, you laid out a very careless post that lashed out at my character and my study in the Word. Had you given it even another day, I would have continued to share that discussion with you over private message. And had you asked, I would have shared the more private reasons for the administrative close on the topic (which had NOTHING to do with you). But you opted not to ask... just to lash out.
Did that hurt? Yes it did. For someone who claimed to be a friend, my pastor read the things you wrote and couldn't believe it. As did many others. It was like the hateful things that have gone on between Terry McLean and Richard Jordan. Absolutely no reason for it.
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If it is very personal then e-mail me, - kingjames1611@cox.net.
Only as personal as you made it, Jerry. You made it a public attack on me and after watching you make these careless "don't believe the Bible" comments to Jim over and over and over... I simply felt it was time to voice my case back.
Why?
Because the basis for your lashing out then is the same basis for what's happening here. Falsely accusing someone of something that isn't happenening... nor that ever happened. And it's right in front of your eyes.
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The incident that happened at your forum is a dead issue in my book and has been for a very long time. If we have a hatchet to bury then by all means let's bury it.
By all means. But you absolutely cannot call something dead that has not been forgiven. For up until now, I've NEVER even remotely gotten the sense that you regret what you did. And it is THAT that I hold.
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By the way, when I went to your forum to send you that last personal message I noticed the forum changes. Nice work, it looks good.
As I close, this post took me about 2 hours to type. This is why I want to talk to Jim in person. In 2 hours I could cover hundreds of scriptures and ask many questions too.
Then you should close your forum. If the 3+ pages haven't been able to cover the Scriptures you hope to share over the phone, then why have a forum at all? You've shared elsewhere that this just takes "too much time" that you simply don't have in the ministry. If you don't have it, then why do you contribute? Why provide the venue?
And again, I must ask... what would cause you to close a topic? For you once claimed that it was my "ethics" that were ungodly regarding the closure of a topic. Now that you've claimed the possibility of closing this topic, I must ask... what would cause you to do it? What are YOUR ethics?
Jeremy
"I have not yet been able to stereotype my theological views, and have ceased to expect ever to do so. The idea is preposterous. None but an omniscient mind can continue to maintain a precise identity of view and opinions. Finite minds, unless they are asleep or stultified by prejudice, must advance in knowledge. The discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds."
-- Charles Finney, The Word of Truth |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 00:02:57
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Hi Jeremy,
I'm glad you got that off your chest.
By the way, I don't ever remember telling you that you don't believe the bible means what it says, I was referring to Jim.
I don't remember anybody saying anything bad or evil on the topic that you locked. Did you delete their post? Was there something I missed? All I remember was you, Jim and I discussing chronology and Ussher was brought up. What happened? What did this person say?
Let's look at it from my side for just a moment. I go to your website and teach on several things. I give the people over there an opportunity to help me with the time chart I am building and give me ideas and such, so the subject of chronology came up. I thought you would find it interesting.
Then I'm accused of stealing Ussher's work when I had never seen his work. I got his book and did the job of a Berean and saw some flaws then I'm accused of being high minded and full of pride. You were giving Ussher praise and high remarks for his work. I just see him as another teacher that needed to be checked out.
On my side of the fence I was the one that was accused as a thief, liar and full of pride. I let it roll off my back. I know you agree with Ussher on several things that I disagree with. I started to discuss these things as I searched his work. I never even brought the subject up on this Ussher guy, someone else did.
As I continued typing I broke the subject into separate posts. I had already made at least 1 post that day and I was on my second or third I don't remember. When I went to post it the topic was locked. I couldn't post. So I copied it and sent it to you in a private message.
I was not warned that the topic was going to be locked. There was no indication whatsoever from my point of view of anyone that said anything nasty or bad. I thought the discussion was going very well, then poof, it was over for no reason at all. No warning, no explanation, nothing. Right in the middle of my teaching, I'm shut off.
What happened? Well here's what I saw. I was accused of stealing. That makes me a thief. I said no I didn't. No one believed me. That makes me a liar. Then I'm accused of thinking of myself higher than I ought to think because I did the job of a Berean - Pride. Then I'm teaching against what you believe such as the going forth of the commandment. Then I'm cut off without any warning or explanation, nothing.
Now what is going on here? What did I do to deserve this? Why did Jeremy cut me off? Why was I accused as a thief, a liar, full of pride and then get my teaching cut off while it's in full swing?
My thoughts? Jeremy did not like what I was teaching because he was against me and what I was teaching. The scripture clearly indicates that the going forth of the commandment was with Cyrus, but Jeremy has chosen the Artaxeres position that Ussher and Bullinger takes. There is no scripture that can go against the Cyrus position as Isaiah clearly states. Jeremy has no where to go, therefore Jeremy cut me off.
I prayed about it. I was hurt, but I had been hurt many times before so I didn't let it bother me. I decided I didn't have the time to go to a forum and teach and be cut off in the middle of my teaching. Therefore I wrote my last post and truthfully spake the things on my heart. There were no lies, but rather the things as I saw it.
Jeremy, listen to me very carefully. If this is all a big misunderstanding I will deeply and honestly apologize to you and to all those that come to your forum. In the few days that led up to you locking the topic I was not treated very well. It seemed like you had something against me for some reason. This is why it seemed that you locked the topic on me without any warning or any explanation.
If someone said something that was inappropriate and you deleted it, I flat out missed it. You must have deleted it before I read it. I did not see anything out of order whatsoever. All I saw was myself being accused of several things and then being cut off in the middle of a teaching.
Now you see my point of view. It was a dead issue in my book. Forgive and forget is my policy, never hold a grudge. From my point of view I was the accused. From your point of view you were the accused. Let's fix this.
I don't know what that person said that I missed, but it must have been very bad for you to lock the topic without warning anyone or giving an explanation. If this is truly the reason for what you did, I deeply apologize. As you can now see, the things that led up to that day had me believing you were against me and what I was teaching because of the things I was accused of.
Now, can we fix this relationship or not? I really didn't know it was broken until today.
In Christ,
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 01:17:01
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Hi Jerry, as far as I am concerned I am done with this topic.
I sure hope you have listened to what Jeremy said. I have had a good number of people contact me, and their story, has been same as his. i doubt that anyone could have been more on target with you than what Jeremy was.
By the way some of those that have contacted me agree with me and some agree with YOU!
However, that is not why they have contacted me, their main concern, has always been a lack of grace being demonstrated in your posts. They all see this as pattern in your life. Most love you dearly, but don't know how to approach you because they have tried to approach you at some time in the past and you jumped all over them and made the submit to your authority. So they have given up trying to reach you.
I know you may not hear, what Jeremy has called you on, but as a brother, in Christ, I want you to know, he told you these things out of love.
Your ministry would grow, far more than it has, if you were more concerned about walking in Christ, than being right, or being a great teacher. Christ is right, and Christ is the great teacher, focus on Him, instead of working so hard.
You have mentioned how hard you work and how busy you are, too many times! I believe youare working to hard. Let Christ take the load, let the rest of the body of Christ, take the load. If Christ, is in them, He can work through them, just as easily as He can work through you.
Do you share the ministry you are in with other brothers and sisters? Are there others that you submit to? We are all to submit to one another in Christ.
I am considered by others to be a full time pastor. I work, for a living currently doing odd jobs. I do not consider my self a "pastor" but rather I acknowledge that others believe that I am an elder that shepherds believers to Christ! As an elder, everything I do is submitted to other elders and the whole fellowship in Chtist. I know my own sinfulness and would have it no other way. Even thess posts are done with their blessing. I keep everyone updated, almost daily. They are as much a part of my ministry as I am.
I am considerd a teaching elder, but I learn more from them, than they do from me. At our meetings my goal is to not have to speak at all. We study the scriptures at our meetings, that does not mean one person telling a group of believers what the scriptures mean, it means learning how to listen to what the scriptures teach each member of the group, we are studying the scriptures, right then and there. All this to say a true pastor, shepherds believers to Christ, not to themselves. We want believers that count on Christ to lead them, Christ to teach them, Christ to live His life in them. A good teaching elder, produces lots of good teaching elders. How does he do this? By keeping their attention on Christ! After all isn't it Christ, that made them the good teaching elder, in the first place? Or was it something the elder did? Jerry are you producing good teaching elders?
You have a lot of believers praying for you, because of this topic! They do not pray that Jerry will come to see the scriptures as Jim, does, but rather, that you might know Christ more deeply, and learn to rest in Him alone.
They see you as a prideful man that has been blinded to his own need for grace. They spot you a mile away, because they are just like you and have been exactly where you are, and they know they could be right back there at any moment.
Jerry, if you spend more time looking at your relationship with, God there is no limit on what God could do through you. Or if you are like myself, you can spend 30 years in ministry depending on yourself, and what you can do to help God. The choice is yours, we are on your side. You will get no condemnation from us, we are all, just like you. We want to encourage Jerry to look at Romans 6 and understand that Jerry is dead, the only life that you can now live, is the life of Christ, if you keep trying to live the Jerry life, you will be a mean spirited person.
There is a reason your wife doesn't want you to talk to her father. The way you are doing things you will do more harm than good. You would talk about grace, and demonstrate a lawful, judgemental attitude. Please remember I can say these things, because I am just like that too! You can try to hide who you are Jerry, but it comes out.
This whole time period of making posts on your site was very hard and painful to me, and I doubt you will ever understand why I did it, but, love sometimes does difficult things waiting for the right moment to share. This has been a huge out lay of my time, and the fellowships that I am an elder at have encouraged this out lay of time, hoping that you would catch on, not to the KJV issue, or the faith vs faith plus works OT issue, but rather to the need in your life for God's grace. The need for you to stop working and start resting. Has it been a waste of my time, time will tell.
You have been blessed with every spiritual blessing, Christ is the source of those blessings, in fact Christ is the blessing, feast your eyes on Him, and think about Him forever!
In Christ,
Jim |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 08:04:52
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Hi Jim,
Thanks for your thoughts and being truthful with me. I am disliked by many people. I realize I am very firm in my teaching, maybe a little too firm, but Christ knows my heart. He is my judge and I will have to give an account to him, not those people that dislike me.
Many prophets, preachers, and Christians in general were and are disliked by others. In 1st John 3 it says,
"18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth."
God tells us to love in deed and in truth, but not in word. I try to show my love by the deeds that I do and the truth that I speak. Jesus loved the people he died for but he was very firm in his teachings to them. In Matthew 23 he laid it on the line to the Pharisees and called them vipers and snakes but yet when they crucified him he prayed for them.
Stephen called the people he was preaching to stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears and when they went to stone him he prayed that that sin would not be laid to there charge.
Christ, Stephen, John the Baptist, Paul and many others were persecuted for doing what they did and the things they said and how they said them. They were disliked by many people. Paul said in 2nd Timothy 3,
"12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."
I'm far from the best when it comes to living godly, but I have had my share of persecution over the years and I fully realize that more persecution is headed my way as I TRY to lead a godly life.
I'm glad that you have been praying for me because I have been praying for you also. This shows that we are brethren in Christ. Even though we disagree on many things, we are still brethren in Christ.
You are probably right, more than likely I have too many irons in the fire. I stay super busy but I like it that way, it keeps me out of trouble.
Just to show you that I am not a mean and hateful guy, if you wish, I will stop everything that I am doing and continue this subject with you. I still have many scriptures I want to cover with you, if you do not want to talk by phone that's OK. I will give you my full undivided attention and extend my patience as far as it will go, for the Lord tells us to be patient with all men.
This forum is very important to me as well as my brethren. It seems sometimes I'm going to have to put more emphasis on some things more than others depending on the situation.
My Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, tells me in Luke 21,
"16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake."
Do I expect to be hated? Yes. Do I expect to be betrayed at times? Yes.
Jim, the farther and farther we get away from this world and the closer and closer we get to Christ, the more the world is going to hate us. But the closer and closer we get to Christ, the more we will love each other. That's just the way it is.
Jesus also said in Luke 6,
"22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets."
As we serve the Lord, he tells us to rejoice when men hate us and separate us from their company. Yes, we will even have brethren that hate us and consider us their enemy. Been there, done that.
Being in the ministry is not a bed of roses. You will be disliked, hated, persecuted and many other things.
I'm not in the ministry to be loved by everyone, that would be foolish on my part.
If you feel that I have wronged you in some way, I apologize. It is not my goal nor my intentions to do wrong to my brethren, because I have to give an account of it at the judgment seat.
In Christ,
Jerry
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MercyBreeze
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 08:59:32
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Jerry,
Yesterday I opted to be probably the most coldhearted I've had to be in over 10 years with someone in the grace movement. Perhaps it served no purpose. Perhaps it did. But as you know from all prior posts, my tone is not usually so blatant. So maybe a part of you has come to realize that you struck a negative chord.
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Hi Jeremy,
I'm glad you got that off your chest.
By the way, I don't ever remember telling you that you don't believe the bible means what it says, I was referring to Jim.
Well, before it seemed to serve no purpose. But since you asked. I'll proceed to quote some of your attacks on me that revolved around my alleged inability.
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I think you are a really nice guy. But I know what Paul's example is. I've been following it for over 25 years.
Implication being: Jerry knows Paul's example. Jeremy doesn't, but he's a really nice guy.
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A while back I started a topic on Paul's Example. Jeremy disagreed with the scriptures I gave and could not refute it and locked the topic.
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Sometimes discussions get heated, that's just the way it is. But Jeremy could not go against the scriptures I presented so he locked the topic.
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The scriptures can take Ussher and chew him up and spit him out. Once again, Jeremy could not go against the scriptures that I presented to him and once again he locked the topic.
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Jeremy, I know that you are going to eventually read this and you can tell the people of your forum anything you want, and make them believe anything you want to tell them, but when you get into a discussion that doesn't go your way you lock it and give some other excuse why you locked it.
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I do not have the time to come to this website and get involved in a topic teaching people or just someone and have the topic get locked because the webmaster doesn't agree with the scripture I give and can't refute them.
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You come from a world where wisdom comes from reading and studying men's books, and going to institutions of higher learning to get it. I come from a world where you ask for wisdom.
Need I go on?
Probably the most interesting of all of those was when you said:
"...and give some other excuse why you locked it."
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I don't remember anybody saying anything bad or evil on the topic that you locked. Did you delete their post? Was there something I missed? All I remember was you, Jim and I discussing chronology and Ussher was brought up. What happened? What did this person say?
Very interesting now, isn't it? Now that you're a bit more calm and rational, you think to yourself, "Wow. Was there something that happened to cause Jeremy to close that topic OTHER than me?" So check it out. Re-read the following statement that I wrote when I closed the topic you so carelessly attacked me for:
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Jim and Jerry:
As both of you know, there are times when a topic goes beyond the point of having a contributive value to the participants as well as the readers. Several days ago, I was informed by one of our other administrators that an "inflammatory" reply was given in this thread by one of its readers (it was not one of you, so there is no reason for names). The comments in that post were directed as a personal attack against me which would only have furthered greater tension. In order to keep what was already a little tense between those currently talking, he removed it quickly.
Today, I must put an end to the potential for further problems.
Much of what I have appealed for in this dialogue is common sense and objective discussion. Instead, what we've engaged for the last few days has been back and forth jabs that become subjective and often illogical. My "peace" has been expressed over and over, so there's no need to repeat it here.
No doubt the subject of chronology will come up again because both Jerry and myself deal with timelines constantly.
But knowing that outside this conversation, we all have a respect for one another's study in the Scriptures, I've chosen to close down this topic so that we can move on to something else. As always, you are welcome to send me an email or PM if you disagree with my decision so that we can talk it through. This isn't a monarchy...haha... my responsibility is to the betterment of the whole.
Have a good night you two. I appreciate you both for your commitment to Christ and cherish your passionate desire to seek and study the truth in our company. We'll see each other in another forum topic.
In Christ Alone,
Jeremy
Had I made some sort of excuse just looking for a way to close you down? To cut you off? To end your teaching glory?
Jerry, no offense, but your forum is very isolated. Our forum is read by a great number of people who come from all kinds of backgrounds. That was our design. And because of that design, we had an individual come in with a very vicious attack that I never personally read. Never saw it, Jerry.
Point was, I had to make a decision about a topic that I personally loved to discuss, but was causing more harm than good to a reader. Our pattern of absent common sense was leading to further potential for this kind of problem. So I closed it. I didn't pop you over the head. I didn't ban you. I didn't censor you. I didn't edit you. I didn't edit the topic. I didn't REMOVE the topic. I simply CLOSED the topic from further posting.
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Let's look at it from my side for just a moment. I go to your website and teach on several things. I give the people over there an opportunity to help me with the time chart I am building and give me ideas and such, so the subject of chronology came up. I thought you would find it interesting.
Very much so, Jerry. As you know, chronology is something that I very much enjoy.
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Then I'm accused of stealing Ussher's work when I had never seen his work.
You take this WAAAAAY too personally. You can't "steal" Ussher's work any more than you can "steal" a hymn from the 17th century. These things were written as tools from the past. People USE the 4,000 year theory all the time and MOST people are borrowing from what they've studied in Ussher's timeline. You were not accused of stealing, but of utilizing the same tools that many others have used. It was you who took this as an attack of theft.
Eventually, you showed that you've done quite a bit of research on the matter and I was appreciative. For I have done the same. And for my research, that was actually how I CAME to know about Ussher. Not the other way around. I didn't read Ussher and then start doing homework. Yet you spent much of your time in the "Jerry's final post" attacking me as though I was praising men like Ussher over the Word. Thus insinuating that you believe the Scriptures... I believe man. Again... false accusation.
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I got his book and did the job of a Berean and saw some flaws then I'm accused of being high minded and full of pride.
The accusations came not from your choice to be a Berean, but because you were quick to make judgments about the efforts of a man's life labor as though they were just an idiot's guide to foolishness. And on that, I asked you whether your work on the timeline would be useful to men 400 years after you're gone. Would you want that? And what would you hope people would say about your timeline? That it was rubbish from a man who was just a man? Or perhaps would you hope that people take some time with it like a tool and then after some time, critique it like anything else?
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You were giving Ussher praise and high remarks for his work. I just see him as another teacher that needed to be checked out.
Many men receive high remarks when they spend a lifetime in Biblical research. Bullinger, Darby, Luther... etc, etc. Whether they're accurate on every line of that research is another story. But it's not absent minded or careless to acknowledge when men have STUDIED the word so as to be approved. Whether they're approved or not is the Lord's call. But if they've STUDIED... then that deserves some recognition. Just as I don't blast you for your study. I may challenge the content of your study, but I will always acknowledge that you invest your time in the Scriptures to derive your conclusions.
The problem is... those who don't agree with you who ALSO study the Scriptures often get the "you don't believe the Scriptures" garbage that you dish out. And that's a problem. You're the first person I've ever seen do it.
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On my side of the fence I was the one that was accused as a thief, liar and full of pride. I let it roll off my back. I know you agree with Ussher on several things that I disagree with. I started to discuss these things as I searched his work. I never even brought the subject up on this Ussher guy, someone else did.
As I continued typing I broke the subject into separate posts. I had already made at least 1 post that day and I was on my second or third I don't remember. When I went to post it the topic was locked. I couldn't post. So I copied it and sent it to you in a private message.
Indeed it was. And your reaction? To lash out at me instead of reading the final post that I wrote. For in it, you would have found that I had NO ill remarks on you or Jim. None. Absolutely nothing against you. Yet, you chose to see what you wanted to see and lash out.
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I was not warned that the topic was going to be locked.
My responsibility is not to give warnings out. Unless, perhaps, it was a warning about your conduct and thus, I was choosing to say, "Hey Jerry, get your act together or this topic will be closed." But truth be told again... that was not the reason for topic closure. So you had no need of being warned.
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There was no indication whatsoever from my point of view of anyone that said anything nasty or bad. I thought the discussion was going very well, then poof, it was over for no reason at all. No warning, no explanation, nothing. Right in the middle of my teaching, I'm shut off.
On a forum as populated as ours is from month to month, you can expect that it will happen again. Whether you're in the conversation or not... that's irrelevant. If something needs to be closed, it needs to be closed. That's why there are administrators.
Looking at your forum here, I've hardly EVER seen a topic that reached even the POTENTIAL for need of closure. And perhaps that's a good thing. You have a small forum. Conversations are relatively brief. Ours gathers up a great deal more involvement. And the more involvement, the more likely that problems will occur.
Yet, I can count the number of topics I've ever had to close on our forum in two years. It's not that many.
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What happened? Well here's what I saw. I was accused of stealing. That makes me a thief. I said no I didn't. No one believed me. That makes me a liar. Then I'm accused of thinking of myself higher than I ought to think because I did the job of a Berean - Pride. Then I'm teaching against what you believe such as the going forth of the commandment. Then I'm cut off without any warning or explanation, nothing.
Actually, the conversation was going on quite well after whatever accusations of persecution you heaped on yourself. You wanted to feel the victim and you did that quite well. But it was not about you.
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Now what is going on here? What did I do to deserve this? Why did Jeremy cut me off? Why was I accused as a thief, a liar, full of pride and then get my teaching cut off while it's in full swing?
My thoughts? Jeremy did not like what I was teaching because he was against me and what I was teaching. The scripture clearly indicates that the going forth of the commandment was with Cyrus, but Jeremy has chosen the Artaxeres position that Ussher and Bullinger takes. There is no scripture that can go against the Cyrus position as Isaiah clearly states. Jeremy has no where to go, therefore Jeremy cut me off.
There wasn't a "chosen position," Jerry. Here again, you read into things what you want to read. If you'll recall, I was sharing my own studies on the matter and what Ussher said. If I happened to agree with Ussher, I was sharing BIBLICALLY why that was the case. If I was in error, that's okay. It's not pertinent to salvation. I made a case and we chatted.
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I prayed about it. I was hurt, but I had been hurt many times before so I didn't let it bother me. I decided I didn't have the time to go to a forum and teach and be cut off in the middle of my teaching. Therefore I wrote my last post and truthfully spake the things on my heart. There were no lies, but rather the things as I saw it.
On this you've got to be careful. Honestly, I've left forums before. There didn't need to be a big hub-bub. A big tadoo that announces one's departure. You just leave. Perhaps you share privately why you feel it's necessary to leave and not come back.
But what you did was lash out so harshly that you practically begged me to delete your "final post." The viciousness of it was so unnecessary that one of our other administrators even suggested that I remove it. It took everything in me to leave it be. Why? Just to prove that I wasn't a big oger trying to edit and erase everything that made me feel small. To prove and remind that I have mercy when mercy isn't necessarily deserved. Your post should have been removed. But I left it intact.
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Jeremy, listen to me very carefully. If this is all a big misunderstanding I will deeply and honestly apologize to you and to all those that come to your forum. In the few days that led up to you locking the topic I was not treated very well. It seemed like you had something against me for some reason. This is why it seemed that you locked the topic on me without any warning or any explanation.
Fair enough. But you don't need to make any kind of spectacle of apology to the forum or readers of the forum. That apology needs to be directed at me personally. And from there, we can move forward as two who serve the ministry of God's grace rightly divided. Public displays like the one you directed at me... or the one I'm now giving to you are admittedly childish. And while I truly love you as a brother (just as I said in reply to your "final post"), most of my remarks here are made out of humanity, not my spirituality. Were I to be acting out of Spirit, then these things would take place in private.
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If someone said something that was inappropriate and you deleted it, I flat out missed it. You must have deleted it before I read it. I did not see anything out of order whatsoever. All I saw was myself being accused of several things and then being cut off in the middle of a teaching.
That's the blessing, as Jim pointed out, of having a group of people you submit to. I am not the only administrator of our forum. The "inappropriate statement" was deleted before I ever had a chance to see it. But the conversation that I had with the other administrator who deleted the comment led me to re-evaluate the affect our conversation was having on readers.
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Now you see my point of view. It was a dead issue in my book. Forgive and forget is my policy, never hold a grudge. From my point of view I was the accused. From your point of view you were the accused. Let's fix this.
I'm all for it.
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I don't know what that person said that I missed, but it must have been very bad for you to lock the topic without warning anyone or giving an explanation. If this is truly the reason for what you did, I deeply apologize. As you can now see, the things that led up to that day had me believing you were against me and what I was teaching because of the things I was accused of.
Now, can we fix this relationship or not? I really didn't know it was broken until today.
It can indeed be fixed. You've seen me take quite a bit at the G.R.A.C.E. Forum. On several occasions, you've been there to assist me in dealing with other problems. So you know my level of patience when others think I should be more blunt. This dialogue we're having now is very childish and I knew that when I entered in.
Call it pride. For that's probably a better description than anything else. You cut me that day without even a private word of conversation to express your concerns. And in the midst of my busiest semester to date, this was the first chance I had to come back (with spring courses being over) and express that issue from my end.
Can we repair ties? Absolutely. If you sense the childishness of my approach here, please know that it was done with purpose. And for that purpose, I apologize.
Jeremy
"I have not yet been able to stereotype my theological views, and have ceased to expect ever to do so. The idea is preposterous. None but an omniscient mind can continue to maintain a precise identity of view and opinions. Finite minds, unless they are asleep or stultified by prejudice, must advance in knowledge. The discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds."
-- Charles Finney, The Word of Truth |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 09:45:47
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Jerry, I am afraid you are missing the point, but that is not your fault, at the right time God will reveal it to you. I am not concerned about your teaching on this subject, even though we disagree, that disagreement is minor compared to the way you disagree with many brothers on many subjects.
Right now, rather than examine the claims that your brothers are making, you would rather rest in the fact that those in ministry will be persecuted. But, Jerry, there is no persection coming from any of us, rather a concern for Jerry.
And while it is true that some believers will also dislike the truth, that is not the issue either, we are not talking about the truth, but rather your prideful way of "teaching" and discussing things. Jerry, you are not walking in Grace! You are walking as a natural man.
Jerry, you mention that maybe you are to busy, a better word might be compulsive and out of control. You can't stop yourself. Others clearly see what is going on, but most have given up trying to warn you.
Thank God, that Jeremy did not! Do you really think the problem with Jeremy is how you treated him? That is only a sign of the problem, and I am sure tha Jeremy knows that. He is hoping that you will see that you are mistreating a lot of people, and it is hurting your witness. Jeremy is hoping you will find peace and rest, in God's grace, he knows that is the answer to what is wrong in your relationship with him and others.
You mention that you know Christ is your judge and that one day you will stand before Him and have to answer to Him. I would warn you, that when God leads members of His body, to tell you something, you would be wise, to consider what He is saying through them.
Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
You say that you are being firm, in your teaching. Jerry if that was the case this present discussion would have never even been started. You are not just being firm, you must have everyone submit to what you believe or you go crazy and say silly things. When someone does not submit to your teaching, rather than honestly talking to them in love, you resort to tactics such as ignoring the verses they bring up, name calling, such as they are not bible believers, you also apparently do not go back and check out what either you are saying or the other person is saying because you accuse them of doing the very thing that you are doing and some how you can not see that you are doing the same thing!
For example in this discussion with me you keep telling people that say you have not dealt with Jim's points that they need to go back further and the will see that you have. They are not stupid, they have done that, and they see that you have not dealt with my points, I was actually hoping that you would see this for yourself, since it is in writing on your board, but you can not see this!
Jerry, I have been in ministry for 33 years our of my 35 years as a believer, I know what spiritual pride is, I am an expert on it, if you keep going down the trail you are on, you will be an expert on it too!
Jerry, you also mention that you are praying for me, thank-you, but I want to make sure you understand, that it is not just me that is praying for you, but many others, and they are not praying that you would agree with me on the KJV issue or the issue of how the OT saints were saved. Those are minor issues, they are praying for your spiritual walk with Christ, they sense a real need in your life, they can sense it because they have all been exactly in your shoes and at the time, they could not see their real need either. There is a huge difference between knowing about God's grace, and walking in God's grace. They want to encourage you in Christ, stop all the doing and focus on Christ.
Your brother in Christ,
Jim |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 19:50:55
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Hi Jeremy,
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Can we repair ties? Absolutely. If you sense the childishness of my approach here, please know that it was done with purpose. And for that purpose, I apologize.
No apology needed. If I did wrong to you, I deserved a tongue lashing. Personally before you contacted me about this, I truly felt that wrong was done to me. I was very hurt. This is why there was a misunderstanding. I kinda wish we could go back and do it over again, but it is water under the bridge now. I wish you would have notified me earlier about this situation but I see that you said you were busy with school.
I will be more than happy to go to your website and explain the misunderstanding and make a public apology if you want me to.
I'm glad we got it worked out.
In Christ,
Jerry |
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MercyBreeze
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 22:27:11
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I will be more than happy to go to your website and explain the misunderstanding and make a public apology if you want me to.
Jerry,
This is one of the reasons that problems began in the first place. You fail to read someone's full post.
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...you don't need to make any kind of spectacle of apology to the forum or readers of the forum. That apology needs to be directed at me personally. And from there, we can move forward as two who serve the ministry of God's grace rightly divided. Public displays like the one you directed at me... or the one I'm now giving to you are admittedly childish. And while I truly love you as a brother (just as I said in reply to your "final post"), most of my remarks here are made out of humanity, not my spirituality. Were I to be acting out of Spirit, then these things would take place in private.
I'm perfectly okay moving forward, Jerry. Public announcements about our coming or going like this only serve to make us feel better about ourselves. And you don't owe the forum anything.
You've apologized and I'm happy to go on regarding that particular matter. But I would ask that you cease to accuse Jim of "not believing the Bible means what it says." That was the garbage that inspired my rant. He's a faithful student of the Word as am I, as are you.
Agreed?
In Christ Alone,
Jeremy
"I have not yet been able to stereotype my theological views, and have ceased to expect ever to do so. The idea is preposterous. None but an omniscient mind can continue to maintain a precise identity of view and opinions. Finite minds, unless they are asleep or stultified by prejudice, must advance in knowledge. The discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds."
-- Charles Finney, The Word of Truth |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 22:41:22
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Hi Jim,
Yes, we all have pride. I don't know if it is something we will ever get rid of but we have to keep it in check. I constantly pray for the Lord to abase me in my pride.
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You say that you are being firm, in your teaching. Jerry if that was the case this present discussion would have never even been started. You are not just being firm, you must have everyone submit to what you believe or you go crazy and say silly things. When someone does not submit to your teaching, rather than honestly talking to them in love, you resort to tactics such as ignoring the verses they bring up, name calling, such as they are not bible believers, you also apparently do not go back and check out what either you are saying or the other person is saying because you accuse them of doing the very thing that you are doing and some how you can not see that you are doing the same thing!
Jim, here is something that I always ask people:
What has more authority, what I believe or what the bible says? And they always say, "What the bible says". So my next question to them is, "What has more authority, what YOU believe or what the bible says? They usually hesitate for a moment then reply, "What the bible says." So then I tell them, then what you believe and what I believe doesn't matter, it is what the bible says that has the final authority.
I do not try to get people to believe what I believe, I try to get them to believe the bible means what it says. What I believe doesn't amount to a hill of beans. When they stand before the judgment seat of Christ they are not going to be judged according to what Jerry believes but rather what they believe. If their beliefs match what the bible says, then it will be better off for them than if their beliefs didn't match.
Now Jim, I am going to put this as gracefully and as kind as I possibly can make it. You are my brethren in Christ, I have no intentions of doing you any harm whatsoever. When I say that you do not believe the bible means what it says, this is not some kind of a tactic as you say it is. When I say the bible, I am referring to the King James Bible because that is the one I use. All my teachings are based upon the King James Bible and believing it means what it says.
Once again, kindness is the utmost thing that I am trying to show here. You have told me:
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They are in most cases accurate enough to give us a very real picture of what God said and meant, but since they are not 100% accurate (only the Greek and Hebrew are 100%) we as believers need to study and show ourselves approved, and part of that is not being lazy and learning Greek and Hebrews so that we can search the scriptures for ourselves.
that you do not believe any English Bible (or any other langauge except Greek and Hebrew) is without error. You believe all English speaking bibles are with error. You believe they have mistakes in them. How can you possibly believe they mean what they say if you believe they have errors in them?
If you believe they have errors, then you can't possibly believe they mean what they say, because when you come across something you disagree with then you can say it is in error.
For instance I asked you what these verses means to you:
"28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
At the beginning of your answer you said:
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But, I will look at this passage that you have brought up, because once again it does not say what you think it says.
And you ended by saying this:
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To me it is very clear, in the context Good means believing and evil means not believing.
I asked you what these verses mean:
"16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
And your answer was:
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So to answer your question, in context Jesus is using the law, in a lawful manner to prove that no one can keep the commandments, so that this man will see a need for a saviour.
You can clearly see here that the answers you gave do not match the scriptures I gave you. The next verses I gave you never gave me a clear answer or no answer at all.
Once again, in the most loving, kind, gentle, passionate way I could ever be, you do not believe the bible means what it says. This is not a tactic, this is not a trick of some sort. I am not trying to cut you down, nor do I mean you harm.
This is the main reason why we will always disagree, regardless of the subject matter. Once again, in the love of Christ, this is not a tactic.
I know you believe the Word of God exists preserved and without error in the Greek and Hebrew for you have told me this in time past, but when it comes to English bibles, you believe they have error and you don't believe they mean what they say.
Hopefully one day, you will see that God preserved his Holy Word in other languages also.
I have many faults. Too firm in my teachings seems to be one. Not showing enough grace, love, etc. I definitely have a lack of patience for people that do not believe the bible means what it says. I'm working on it, just give me time. I should be more patient. There is no way I am going to be able to convince them to believe the bible means what it says if I don't spend the time with them and show them the scriptures.
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For example in this discussion with me you keep telling people that say you have not dealt with Jim's points that they need to go back further and the will see that you have. They are not stupid, they have done that, and they see that you have not dealt with my points, I was actually hoping that you would see this for yourself, since it is in writing on your board, but you can not see this!
Your right. I still don't get it. All those scriptures that you gave in Romans 3 & 4 and Galatians I have told you that I believe they mean exactly what they say. They teach salvation by grace through faith and when you compare them with other scriptures that say something different you get the understanding of when and who they apply to. What point am I missing?
Do you want me to take these scriptures alone by themselves and apply them to all time? Is this what you want me to do? If I do this, will I then be addressing and getting your point? For instance:
"1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, [even] God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
And now Galatians,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith
These scriptures mean exactly what they say. Without comparing them to any other scripture, it looks like salvation was always by grace though faith.
Well, Jim, is this addressing your point? Is this what you wanted to hear? Or am I still missing your point? Please clarify.
Is this what you want me to do? Take all the scriptures that back up your belief and avoid the ones that go against it? If I did this, I will come to the same conclusion as you, that salvation was always by grace through faith without works involved.
If this is not addressing your point, please tell me exactly what to do to address your point. Or do I have to believe exactly like you do to address your point? Please clarify.
If you feel that I am ignoring a verse, or you have more verses you want me to cover, please bring it to my attention and I will address it immediately, but before you do, I'm already going to tell you I believe it means what it says.
I am trying not to avoid you or the scriptures you give. I still feel that I have explained these verses and others that you gave several times. They simply mean what they say, I don't know how to explain them any further, but I have said this from the very beginning. I don't fully understand how much more you want me to explain them. How can I possibly address them and explain them more than saying that they mean what they say?
You said,
quote:
name calling
Please explain.
Jim, you and others feel that my attitude ( I guess) needs work. Maybe so. Patience definitely. My bedside manners are far from the best, but everybody is different. When it comes to etiquette, more than likely I will always be on the low end of the spectrum. It is definitely not one of my finer points.
I can only teach with the abilities that I have been given. Others may have better bedside manners than me but that is their gift. When the Lord gives me the gift as others have then I can use it. Till then, I will use what I have been given and try to improve on what I have.
In Christ,
Jerry |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 23:14:04
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Hi Jeremy,
I read what you said the first time. I was just double checking to see if you changed your mind.
quote:
But I would ask that you cease to accuse Jim of "not believing the Bible means what it says." That was the garbage that inspired my rant. He's a faithful student of the Word as am I, as are you.
Concerning Jim not believing the bible means what it says this is not garbage. Jim believes the Word of God without error is only contained in the Greek and Hebrew texts. He believes any other bible in any other language is full of errors. You cannot believe a verse in a bible means what it says if you feel the verse is in error. If you feel a verse is in error, then you don't believe it means what it says. This goes for any bible not just the King James.
Jim does believe the word of God exists and it is preserved without error, but it is not available to anyone but those that know Greek and Hebrew. If you read my last post to him I very gently and kindly quoted the things he told me about some verses. He actually told me that they do not say what they say.
I believe Jim studies the Word. I really do. But my teachings are based upon the King James Bible and believing it means what it says, so Jim and I are going to differ on many things.
I can quit using the phrase, "you don't believe the bible means what it says" but it is not going to make any difference. If you believe a scripture is in error you simply do not believe it means what it says because you obviously feel it is a mistake. I'm really trying to be nice about this Jeremy but I am going by what Jim has told me. Read my last post to him and see what his answers were when I asked him what the verses meant.
Jim is a very nice guy. Pleasant to have a conversation with. I'm glad he tolerates my impatience with him. Hopefully I'll get better at having more patience with people.
But I will quit using the phrase if it bothers you and Jim.
In Christ,
Jerry |
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MercyBreeze
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 00:26:38
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Jerry,
You've known me now for a little over a year. And ONLY in the last few months have I ever even come close to being of the King James Only crowd. And even still, there are many of "that crowd" (you included) who would disagree with my assessment of Biblical text.
Point?
I have believed the Scriptures, studied the Scriptures, and analyzed the Scriptures for more than 10 years. ONLY in the past year have I even taken the "KJO" argument with any legitimacy. ONLY in the past year have I even felt that it mattered.
What of my other years, Jerry? What of the time you knew me before when I was not even remotely partial to one side or the other? Would you accuse me of "not believing the Word means what it says then?"
The reason I refer to it as garbage is merely this. You draw conclusions about how people perceive the Word of God because of the King James issue. I don't believe and never will believe that it's so black and white. To me, the King James issue is a NON-issue. Why? Because my salvation does not come from the King James Bible... it comes from the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ that I learned about as a child reading from an NIV and having "heard the gospel of my salvation and believed it." My later studies upon learning right division took me away from NIV and into the NASB. And again, ONLY in the past two years have I begun using the King James for any reason whatsoever.
You know why I started using it? So that I wouldn't "upset" people like you. I didn't use begin using it because of some newfound revelation of truth. I began using it because there were so many people like you who would immediately discount anything I said if I didn't use it. So in order to be able to impact a more consistent audience, I set the NASB down and began working with the KJB. No fancy studies that led me to make the change. No stars that shined upon me because I now had the truth. Just an effort to reach an audience that would never hear me otherwise.
If you or anyone else had approached me during that my NASB years and told me that I didn't believe the Bible means what it says because of my choice of text... I would have laughed in your face. That retrospective look doesn't change today simply because I have come to study more about the value and content of God's Word in the King James. If you were to tell a fellow believer (such as you do with Jim) that they do "not believe the Bible means what it says" because of their choice of text... my reaction would be the same today as it would have been then. Initial laughter. But after continued statements... I'd take offense for the brother in the faith.
Why?
Again... because I myself have shared in the grace of Christ without ever having TOUCHED a King James Bible. And I have studied the Scriptures deeply without ever having TOUCHED a King James Bible.
Do I believe today that more things are illuminated in my studies by trusting a single Word over many versions? Absolutely! But I do not regret or believe for even a second that any of my time in study prior to current perceptions was wasted or foolish. None of it. For in all reading, I was "studying to show myself approved." Not before you. Not before Jim. Not before myself. But before God.
We study many things during our lives that perhaps lack this, that, or the other. But for what we may find later to have lacked, the former study is not irrelevant or negated.
So on this, I will always come to the defense of one who is not of the "King James Only" camp. Mainly because, with you, there's never been a time that we've talked about this issue where I've been in full agreement with you. Truth be told, you should have known that by now as I've spoken several times in this forum regarding the value of the Greek and Hebrew text. You may have disagreed with my having placed value in Greek, but I believed in the Scriptures no less than you. And certainly no less than Jim.
One of my private studies is always going to be with regard to the Greek. I'm not much for Hebrew and unless things change, I probably won't ever invest much into it (though I hope that my attitude does eventually grow to desire it more curiously). As I've said on several occasions, the King James uses a tremendously large number of words that any current English speaking person would never use and not even understand the meaning. So what do they do? What should they do with a word in the King James that they don't understand?
Perhaps you'd say, "Go to a dictionary." Very good. But what would that dictionary share? Just the meaning alone? Or would it also provide an etymology with roots and origins? And where would those origins be? In yet another English word? Not usually. Typically, our English stems from French, German, Greek, and Latin. Ours is a melting pot of spoken terms. And when we don't understand a word in our OWN language... we go study it out. And that study will ALWAYS lead us to an origin.
What's the alternative?
We proceed in our study without any understanding of the words we read on the page. In which case, the words and our study have no value because we do not understand what we're trying to study.
It's an illogical conclusion you continue drawing about the King James issue, but that's nothing new. You and I have been on different spectrums of this issue for quite some time. Perhaps more recently because of my personal studies, we may be closer than before, but we're still not in the same line.
That said, you have no reason to categorize Jim on one side of the table because of the King James Bible and put me on the other alongside of you. Up until about six months ago, I knew that we were on different sides of the puzzle, but I really couldn't have cared less. For me, it was okay that you believed the King James Bible was the final authority on all Biblical matters. Though I made my case from time to time, it didn't shake my world. Nor would I ever accuse you of "not believing the Word" because you never looked at Greek.
The Word of God is SHARP, Jerry. It's a blade that cannot fully be grasped by any of us. We cannot possibly grasp every meaning, every verse, every mystery, every puzzle, or every jot. We do our best with the limited time that we have. But we're all students. We all study at whatever place we're at in the journey.
And somewhere along the way, you've got to stop seeing those who are not King James Only as opponents to the Word. And perhaps you'll find that the tendency toward "grace" and "patience" will show itself more evident. You don't need to relinquish your belief in the King James or the authority that you give to it, but the benefit of a life lived in grace is knowing that salvation begins with the cross... and further understanding begins with time and patience.
In Christ Alone,
Jeremy
"I have not yet been able to stereotype my theological views, and have ceased to expect ever to do so. The idea is preposterous. None but an omniscient mind can continue to maintain a precise identity of view and opinions. Finite minds, unless they are asleep or stultified by prejudice, must advance in knowledge. The discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds."
-- Charles Finney, The Word of Truth |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 20:50:42
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Hi Jeremy,
Thanks for your thoughts. I use the Greek and Hebrew once in a while when I don't understand a word. I'm just ignorant of a lot of words so I have to look up their meanings from time to time.
I do not press the issue on the King James Bible. When I first started out I didn't even own one. Like you, when I got saved I didn't even have one. As you said, salvation comes from Jesus Christ not the scriptures. The scriptures just tell us about him. You can use just about any bible and lead someone to Christ. It doesn't have to be a King James.
I only tell people if they really want to get into the deep things of God, they need a King James Bible. If you don't read and study your bible it really doesn't matter which one you use.
Personally, I use the King James because it works for me. To me it makes more sense and it flows well for me, but I have plenty of other reasons.
quote:
The Word of God is SHARP, Jerry. It's a blade that cannot fully be grasped by any of us. We cannot possibly grasp every meaning, every verse, every mystery, every puzzle, or every jot. We do our best with the limited time that we have. But we're all students. We all study at whatever place we're at in the journey.
And somewhere along the way, you've got to stop seeing those who are not King James Only as opponents to the Word. And perhaps you'll find that the tendency toward "grace" and "patience" will show itself more evident. You don't need to relinquish your belief in the King James or the authority that you give to it, but the benefit of a life lived in grace is knowing that salvation begins with the cross... and further understanding begins with time and patience.
Yes, I agree that we are all students. I'm constantly learning all the time, which is something I'm about to share with Jim.
I do not see people that do not use a King James Bible as an opponent to the Word. When I first got saved I was very eager to learn as much about God as I could, but I did not own a King James Bible. I did not feel that I was an opponent to the word, neither do I feel that way about others. I saw the power in a King James Bible that the other English speaking bibles did not have. I have compared English speaking bibles with each other and to me, the King James came out on top, so that is the one I use. But that is my preference.
Hi Jim,
I have been praying about this situation between me and you and asked the Lord to give me wisdom on the situation. Now I feel led to share something with you that might help us work out some of our disagreements.
As you and Jeremy and everybody else, I also still learn things and change my beliefs from time to time. A couple of months ago we had a discussion in Jeremy's forum that led to chronology and eventually James Ussher was brought up. I went out and bought his book and by glancing over it, I found a few things that I disagreed with and brought them to Jeremy's attention.
One of the subjects was the birth of Abraham. Before I go on, I realize this might not interest you in the least bit, but this subject means a lot to me and Jeremy. I believed that Terah his father was 70 years old when Abraham was born. Ussher had Terah 130 when Abraham was born. I flat out disagreed, I could not see that. But anyway I was curious about how he got his answer and I told Jeremy that I would do some research and see if I can find out how he got it.
In never saw in Ussher's book how he got the answer, but I prayed about it (and other subjects) and went through the scriptures to see if I could find out how he got it. Sure enough, the Lord showed me the answer and now I see that I was wrong and Ussher was correct. Let me explain. Once again, this subject may be boring to you, but it gives a perfect example of comparing spiritual things with spiritual to come to the correct answer.
In Genesis 11 it says,
"26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.
27 Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot."
Now with this verse all alone by itself, there is no indication whatsoever that Terah was 130 years old when Abraham was born. I saw this verse and saw that Abraham was listed first. I took him as the firstborn and him being born when Terah was 70 years old.
I believed this for over twenty years. Then about a week ago I started searching again because a Berean is supposed to check people out. Ussher said it was 130 so I searched the scriptures to see if what he was telling me was so. And sure enough he was correct on this subject. But to get the correct answer, you have to compare spiritual things with spiritual as Paul said to do. In Acts 7 it says,
"4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell."
This verse refers to Abraham. Notice it says he left Charran when when his father was dead. Now this verse also gives no indication whatsoever that Terah was 130 when Abraham was born. But let's compare more scripture. Back in Genesis 11 it says,
"32 And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran."
Once again, there is no indication that Terah was 130 when Abraham was born, but we do get the info of how old Terah was when he died. Let's add even another scripture. In Genesis 12 it says,
"4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran."
This verse also gives no indication whatsoever that Terah was 130 years old when Abraham was born. But by comparing spiritual things with spiritual we can clearly see that Abraham did not leave his father until his father died. Terah was 205 years old when he died. When Abraham left Harran he was 75 years old.
So all we have to do is subtract 75 years from Terah's 205 years and we come up with the answer of Terah being 130 when Abraham was born.
Along with Genesis 11:27, it took at least three other scriptures scattered throughout the bible to come up with the correct answer. Even though there is not a scripture that says,
"And Terah lived 130 years and begot Abraham"
we can still see the correct answer by comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But just by using Genesis 11:27 alone by itself the correct answer could not be obtained.
Hopefully, this is a good example for you to see that when Paul says in 1st Corinthians 2,
"10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
So what I have done, I have changed my belief that Terah was 70 years old when Abraham was born and I now believe that Terah was 130 years old when Abraham was born. I changed my belief to match the bible. Even though there isn't a scripture that flat out says it, the correct answer can be obtained by comparing spiritual things with spiritual. I always believed those verses meant what they said. I just never put 2 and 2 together and last week the Lord opened my eyes to the understanding of the verses. As I said before, you can believe the verses mean what they say, but still not understand them. Such was the case for me. In fact, there are still plenty of verses I don't understand, but I believe they mean what they say.
Now lets call Genesis 11:27 the main verse. With this verse by itself, I believed that Abraham was born when Terah was 70 years old. When I come to Acts 7 which says,
"4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell."
I could say, "This verse cannot be correct because Abraham was born when Terah was 70 and Abraham left Charran when he was 75 so his father was only 145 when he left, he wasn't dead yet."
But that is not what the scripture says. It says his father was dead, then he left.
Now my choices are to believe verse 4 means what it says or twist it around to mean something else. I could say,
"It really means his father was still alive when he left Charran"
But that would be saying exactly opposite of what it said. But believing it meant what it said, I saw that I was wrong when I compared all these scriptures together. So I changed my belief to match the bible as I have done many times before. Just a month or so ago, I told you I had to change my belief about Peter knowing that Christ died for sins before Paul and here I am once again changing my belief to match the bible.
I am not going to try to change the bible to match my belief. I will change my beliefs to match the bible.
Now concerning Paul's teachings of salvation by grace through faith not of works. If you take these teachings and do not compare them with the rest of the bible, especially the verses that go against it, you will come to the conclusion that salvation was always by grace through faith, not of works. If you take the verses that go against this teaching and believe they mean what they say, you will come to the conclusion that works were at one time involved with someones salvation.
For the last month I have been trying to share with you about comparing spiritual things with spiritual. You asked me to quit hopping around. You show me a verse, I tell you I believe it means what it says. I show you a verse, you tell me, "It doesn't mean that" or "your taking it out of context". Any verse I show you that goes against your belief you do not take at face value but rather have some other type of answer or meaning for the verse.
If you want a true answer for the question, "Was everyone always saved by grace through faith without works?" Then you must compare spiritual things with spiritual believing the verses mean what they say, using ALL of the scripture, not just the ones that back up your belief.
You believe the verses mean what they say that back up your belief, but the ones that go against your belief you change their meaning instead of taking them at face value.
Change your beliefs to match the bible. Don't try to change the bible to match your beliefs, because you will not get the correct answer.
In Christ,
Jerry
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MercyBreeze
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 21:21:35
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Jerry,
Your example of Abraham's age actually helps to further illustrate my point.
On March 15, just after the birth of your grandson, you posted a series of objections to Ussher's Annals after having purchased it earlier the previous day. Your objections totaled 6.
On March 17, I addressed each one of your objections and specifically gave the Biblical reason why Abraham was the age that Ussher had concluded him to be. Here was your quote and my response to it:
quote:
quote:
6. He has Abraham born when Terah was 130. It should be when Terah was 70. This is a 60 year difference. Page 892
Took me a second with this one because you said p.892... that's part of the appendix.
On page 22, however, he does deal with this. And without quoting him, I'll make the same argument by use of the Word.
"And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran." Genesis 11:26
Unless these men were all triplets, they would not have been born ON Terah's 70th year. At first glance, it sure does appear that Abram was born when Terah was 70, but look at it from another angle.
"And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran." Genesis 11:32
Terah lived 205 years. Verse 26 told us that at age 70, he "begat" Abram, Nahor, and Haran. I would suggest to you that the "begat" was the beginning of such children being born. As in, they were not born at the same time, but between his 70th and 205th year.
"Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:" Genesis 12:1
At the point of Terah's death, Scripture says "now." Much like we use "but now" when referring to the our present dispensation.
This "now," however, means a new step in the journey. "Abram, your father has died. Now I would like you to leave your country and your father's house." Makes sense right?
"So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram [was] seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran." Genesis 12:4
So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken. And he was 75 years old. If Terah just died at age 205 and Abram is 75, the subtraction gives us 130.
Now... the alternative view is that Abram was born on the same year as his two other brothers, Haran and Nahor. But in order for this to have happened, it would either have to as triplets or by different maidservants. Very possible indeed. But I would concur with Ussher's timeline note and suggest that he is accurate in his figures.
Why do I share this? Because I gave a Biblical answer to your objection and you didn't believe it. You mentioned that you had seen the same argument by Bullinger and that it was incorrect.
My point? You went away and continued to study as you always do. Just as we ALL do. Someone opting to not agree with your Biblical presentation right away is not sufficient to accuse them of "not believing the Bible means what it says" or even that they're "twisting" the Scriptures as they feel necessary.
You see what I mean? You were given a Biblical presentation on Abraham's age and you didn't believe the PRESENTATION. You had to continue studying it out. I would never claim that you didn't believe the Scriptures or that you were twisting them to your delight.
The course of my sharing this is to indicate we are ALL students going forward with whatever it is that we can go forward with. We study. We prod. We dig.
I do it.
You do it.
Jim does it.
We're all men who study the Word and will find that we don't see things the same way all the time. We'd certainly hope to keep studying and reach the same view, but when it doesn't happen, we haven't studied less or disregarded Scripture more.
Making sense yet?
Jeremy
"I have not yet been able to stereotype my theological views, and have ceased to expect ever to do so. The idea is preposterous. None but an omniscient mind can continue to maintain a precise identity of view and opinions. Finite minds, unless they are asleep or stultified by prejudice, must advance in knowledge. The discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds."
-- Charles Finney, The Word of Truth |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 22:27:26
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Hi Jeremy,
Your presentation was good, but it was another scripture that convinced me.
The scripture that opened my eyes was not one that you gave or Ussher gave. It was Acts 7:4 which says,
"4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell."
The one you gave in Genesis 12:1 with the "NOW" thing was good but it didn't lock it in for me like Acts 7:4 did. You and Ussher both left this out. But I see it now. Ussher might have used this verse somewhere, but I never did see it.
There was nothing wrong with your presentation. It was good, but Acts 7:4 was the icing on the cake for me.
Another thing that convinced me is that Nahor married Haran's daughter, which would indicate that Haran was older than the rest of them.
I sure wish I would have seen this 20 years ago, but better late than never. The Lord opens our eyes when he is ready, not when we think we are ready.
Bullinger has a pretty good answer for the difference between 1Kings 6:1 which states 480 years between the end of the time in the wilderness to the 4th year of Solomon which does not match the 450 years that Paul gave for the time of the judges. I don't fully understand it yet, but it's kinda makes sense.
Ussher went with the 480 years which ends up being about 94 -96 years difference from what Paul said about the time of the judges. Bullinger went with what Paul said. I'm studying that now, along with some other things. You would probably find it interesting. I'm also going back through the kings to double check and make sure I didn't miss anything.
JP |
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Glen
65 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 00:06:23
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Jerry
It must have been my comments about a little predestination post that I refered to were I was acussed of some things that were not so, if it was my comments that are being refered to then I still stand by them, basicly called a liar, and acussed of falsh motive for asking a simple question about calvin, seems theres a double standerd, but its ok if he does it thats BS!!!
Jerry I dont agree with ya on some things, but I dont like this acussers double standerd, or high toned christianity hid behind humanisms wisdom, the all seeing master of grace that roams the grace boards give me a break,
Glen. |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 06:11:46
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Hi Glen,
I have no idea what you are talking about. Please explain in further detail.
Thanks.
Jerry |
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Kenny
279 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 08:48:08
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This whole thread just makes me sad...
I believe people were always saved by grace... but not by grace apart from works. I just can't see it any other way. I someone else sees it differently then so be it. Not everyone is going to believe the exact same way till we get up stairs.
Do I believe that Jesus died on the cross for my sins was buried and rose again on the 3rd day according to the scriptures? Yes.
Do I have faith that his shed blood was sufficient to pay for all my sins? Yes.
Have I called on him to save me? Yes.
Do I believe baptism or any other work is required for me to be saved or to stay saved? No.
Do i believe I am eternally secure? Yes.
Jerry has made it clear over and over how he believes things go in the Bible. Jim has also. Neither one is appears like they are going to be swayed. If we all have salvation right, let's thank God for that and move on. This whole thread is doing nothing but hurting me.
And as for whatever went on in the other forum, let's forigve one another and be tender hearted. Patient and long suffering. And, let's apologise and forget it and press on to the mark and run the race.
It is true that light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak. |
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MercyBreeze
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 08:59:28
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Kenny,
The events of the other forum have been resolved and we've moved forward. No need to be sad anymore. If anything, the fact that a resolution was reached and restored, you should be at peace. Jerry has held a belief about me and I have held a belief about him since a "blow up" that happened three months ago. Yet, today, we have both apologized for our level of error/childishness and moved forward.
Again, for this, you should be thankful.
Jeremy
"I have not yet been able to stereotype my theological views, and have ceased to expect ever to do so. The idea is preposterous. None but an omniscient mind can continue to maintain a precise identity of view and opinions. Finite minds, unless they are asleep or stultified by prejudice, must advance in knowledge. The discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds."
-- Charles Finney, The Word of Truth |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 14:56:47
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Kenny, thanks for your post. I have a question for you. You said this thread made you sad. I can understand that, but I would like to know what exactly made you sad.
Please be honest, and truthful, about what it is that bothered you, even if it was my attitude, please tell me.
In Christ,
Jim |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2007 : 09:08:31
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Hi Kenny,
You said,
quote:
Not everyone is going to believe the exact same way till we get up stairs.
You are correct, but there will be some that agree with each other, and this is what we should strive for. In 1st Corinthians 1 it says,
"10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."
The only way we can work out our differences is if we talk about them. If we never talk about them they will always be the same - differences. This, of course, is not having the same mind and the same judgment.
Most people are not willing to talk about their differences, therefore most people will not be of the same mind or the same judgement. But you, Jim, Jeremy, Glen and I and others are some of the few that are willing to talk about our differences, therefore this is a good thing.
This doesn't mean that we will all agree on everything, but there is a possibility that it could happen because at least we are all trying. God honors this. If we weren't trying, then the possibility of agreeing on everything is not even there.
Now concerning brotherly love the bible says in Colossians 3,
"13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye."
This is what we are supposed to do. To forbear someone means to put up with them. Everybody is different. We are not all going to have the same personalities, thoughts, way of doing things, etc. The Lord knows this, this is why he said to forbear one another in love.
In Philippians 3 it says,
"13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
There is absolutely nothing you can do about the past, but there is something you can do about the future. Paul said to forget those things that are behind us. You can't do nothing about them anyway. If you did somebody something wrong in the past, you can apologize in the future, but it doesn't change the past.
As we press toward the mark of the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus, we learn to forbear one another in love, forgive and forget. Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ took wrong for us when he shed his precious blood at Calvary, and he wants us to take wrong for one another. In 1st Corinthians 6 it says,
"7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren."
The Lord asks us to take wrong for our brethren. If you get into a situation with a brother you should take wrong. Who's right and who's wrong doesn't matter. Jesus Christ was in the right, but he took the wrong, and he wants us to do the same and be like him. In Philemon, Paul said,
"10 I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds:
18 If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account;
19 I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides."
Paul was willing to take wrong for his brethren. Christ taught him this. Christ also teaches us this. When we become willing to take wrong for our brethren, we are one step closer to knowing the love of Christ. In John 15 it says,
"13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
There is no greater love than laying down your life for your friends. Jesus had this love. I want to have it, and hopefully one day I'll get there. Till then, I will keep pressing toward the mark.
For those that do get there, this is what happens to them. In Ephesians 4 it says,
"13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"
These people that know the love of Christ have the unity of the faith.
It is kind of sad to see brethren have differences, but please don't be sad when you see some the brethren that try to work out those differences whether it be a quarrel or just doctrinal differences. They are doing what they are supposed to do. This is something that you should be thankful for and happy about.
And as Jeremy said, when you see brethren work out a problem between themselves this is a good thing. Jeremy and I both did what we were supposed to do:
"13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye."
Hopefully we both learned something from the experience, I know I have. But now it is time to forget about it and move on as Paul said.
We will always be bumping heads with people as we carry on our individual ministries, but what we do about those situations we will have to give an account for at the judgment seat. The Lord tells us what to do in these situations, whether we follow the guidelines or not is up to us as individuals.
In Christ,
Jerry |
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Kenny
279 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 22:47:01
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quote:
Originally posted by vanschoonhoven
Kenny, thanks for your post. I have a question for you. You said this thread made you sad. I can understand that, but I would like to know what exactly made you sad.
Please be honest, and truthful, about what it is that bothered you, even if it was my attitude, please tell me.
In Christ,
Jim
hi Jim. Sorry it took a while for me to respond, but I have been busy with things.
i guess it was just the whole "vibe" I was getting. For some reason, it was an angry vibe... but it's very hard to trust such things over the internet... you can't see people's expressions when they are posting and you can hear no tone to their words... your mind kinda just supplies those on it's own.
I may have been a little down emotionally and perceived everything the wrong way. But, I am glad everything got worked out.
It is true that light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak. |
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salvationbygrace
3 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 23:27:57
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Romans 3:1,2
"WHAT advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."
They had so much going for them. They had the Covenant promises, they had the Old Testament, they had the prophets, they had the Psalms, the Temple, the priesthood, that was all going for them. But Paul says that still wasn't the important thing. The most important was that unto them were committed the oracles of God. I always make the point that Luke was not a Gentile, he had to be a Jew, and if he wasn't a full Jew he was at least one-half. Because the Scripture makes a point of the fact that only Jews wrote this Book, by inspiration of course. Now come all the way down to verse 5:
Romans 3:5
"But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)"
Is God going to be unfair when He one day will pour out His wrath on Christ-rejecting mankind? No! Because He's paid the price. Every human being has had his sin debt paid in full at the Cross. Every person that has ever lived has already, so far as God is concerned had reconciliation accomplished. And all they have to do is believe it. This is why God will have every right in the world to pour out His wrath. He's done everything possible to make everything as simple as possible so that lost humanity can come back to Him.
Romans 3:6-8
"God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" Even though he was a religious man and a religious zealot of Judaism, yet God had to tell Saul of Tarsus that he was a sinner. He was undone.
"And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) `Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.'"
Some time ago, I read a commentary on Romans Chapter 6 by a British Theologian of a bygone day, and he made the claim that if we teach and proclaim the Gospel of Grace as this Book intended it to be taught, then we are going to be accused by some, just like Paul says here that he was slanderously accused. They are going to tell us that if that is the way it is then you're telling me I can live as ungodly as I want so that I can check out the Grace of God. No, that's not what it means. It just simply means that no matter how deep a sinner goes, God's Grace is always greater, and that is never license to see how far we can go.
Now here is where I wanted to end up this lesson. The final verdict. The Prosecuting Attorney has laid out all His reasons. He has categorized the human race into these three areas, now look what the Scripture says:
Romans 3:9-11
"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin: As it is written, `There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.'" Do you see that? That is the final verdict, and to carry it a little further look at verses 22 and 23.
Romans 3:22,23
"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference (that verse makes a level playing field. No one can say they have a better or lesser advantage because the Scripture says that there is no difference): For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
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Saints of all ages saved by grace
