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 Topic  |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
 Posted - 04/17/2007 : 18:36:02
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Our tally thus far:
Set #1
John 5
"28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
What this means to Jerry:
quote:
That there is going to be a time when everyone in the graves are going to come forth and the people that have done good will come unto the ressurection of life and those that did evil will come unto the ressurection of damnation. The people that did good will have eternal life and the people that did evil will have eternal damnation.
What this means to Jim:
quote:
To me it is very clear, in the context Good means believing and evil means not believing.
Next set: #2
Matthew 19
"16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
What this means to Jerry:
quote:
Now to me, verse 17 means that if you want to have eternal life you have to keep the commandments.
What this means to Jim:
quote:
So to answer your question, in context Jesus is using the law, in a lawful manner to prove that no one can keep the commandments, so that this man will see a need for a saviour.
Set #3
Ezekiel 18
"24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive."
What this means to Jerry:
quote:
To me this means in verse 24, that if a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and starts doing all the abominations that wicked people do that he will die in his sin. All his righteousness that he has done in his past will not be mentioned unto him.
It means to me In verse 27 that if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he is doing, and does that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
What this means to Jim:
No clear answer.
#4
Deuteronomy chapter 6
"25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us."
What this means to Jerry:
quote:
To me this means that if they did the commandments it would be their righteousness.
What this means to Jim:
No clear answer.
Jim you said,
quote:
Next time I want to deal with James 2 and look at what James was teaching when he said Abraham was saved by works, and what did James mean when he said faith without works is dead. Does this conflict with Paul’s teachings or is James talking about something else, something different than Paul was?
So we will jump ahead to James 2 then backtrack to the old testament.
Set # 5
James 2
"14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
What this means to Jerry:
Verse 14: James is asking a question. What will it profit a man if he says he has faith but he has no works, can faith without works (or faith alone) save him?
Verse 24: James is answering his question. You see how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
OK Jim, what do these verses mean to you?
(Comment: You keep saying what they mean in context, but we disagree. If your views of these scriptures is in context, then obviously you feel that I am taking these verses out of context by believing they mean what they say.)
In Christ,
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 20:56:22
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Jerry, are we keeping score?
Okay, so this is what I see so far.
1. you ask the question how you want them asked,
2. you do not allow the surrounding scriptures to interpet what the verse means, and do not allow other scriptures that deal with that same subject to interpete that scripture.
3. you never answer any of my questions.
4. you never deal with the scriptures that show the other position
I am starting to think, you like control and you are trying to convince me, rather that allowing the scriptures to speak to me.
You keep saying because I use the whole context rather than a single verse that I do not believe that verse says what it means. I am telling you I, don't know what that scripture means until the context tells me.
I guess you are forcing me to give you an example, if I ask you what does run mean. Please don't tell me you know what it means without the context. The little word run can mean many different things and the context tells you what it means. i seriously doubt you know all the things that run can mean, but maybe you do let's see. Here is the definition of the English word run according to Websters dictionary. Please take the time to look at this one word, maybe than you will understand, what I mean by looking at the context to determine what the word means, instead of just going with the first thought that comes to our mind. We are told to study to show ourselves approved, not just take the first thing that pops in our head.
Run
RUN, v.i. pret. ran or run; pp. run.
1. To move or pass in almost any manner, as on the feet or on wheels. Men and other animals run on their feet; carriages run on wheels, and wheels run on their axle-trees.
2. To move or pass on the feet with celerity or rapidity, by leaps or long quick steps; as, men and quadrupeds run when in haste.
3. To use the legs in moving; to step; as, children run alone or run about.
4. To move in a hurry.
The priest and people run about.
5. To proceed along the surface; to extend; to spread; as, the fire runs over a field or forest.
The fire ran along upon the ground. Exo 9.
6. To rush with violence; as, a ship runs against a rock; or one ship runs against another.
7. To move or pass on the water; to sail; as, ships run regularly between New York and Liverpool. Before a storm, run into a harbor, or under the lee of the land. The ship has run ten knots an hour.
8. To contend in a race; as, men or horses run for a prize.
9. To flee for escape. When General Wolfe was dying, an officer standing by him exclaimed, see how they run. Who run? said the dying hero. The enemy, said the officer. Then I die happy, said the general.
10. To depart privately; to steal away.
My conscience will serve me to run from this Jew, my master.
11. To flow in any manner, slowly or rapidly; to move or pass; as a fluid. Rivers run to the ocean or to lakes. The Connecticut runs on sand, and its water is remarkably pure. The tide runs two or three miles an hour. Tears run down the cheeks.
12. To emit; to let flow.
I command that the conduit run nothing but claret.
Rivers run potable gold.
But this form of expression is elliptical, with being omitted; "rivers run with potable gold."
13. To be liquid or fluid.
As wax dissolves, as ice begin to run -
14. To be fusible; to melt.
Sussex iron ores run freely in the fire.
15. To fuse; to melt.
Your iron must not burn in the fire, that is, run or melt, for then it will be brittle.
16. To turn; as, a wheel runs on an axis or on a pivot.
17. To pass; to proceed; as, to run through a course of business; to run through life; to run in a circle or a line; to run through all degrees of promotion.
18. To flow, as words, language or periods. The lines run smoothly.
19. To pass, as time.
As fast as our time runs, we should be glad in most part of our lives that it ran much faster.
20. To have a legal course; to be attached to; to have legal effect.
Customs run only upon our goods imported or exported, and that but once for all; whereas interest runs as well upon our ships as goods, and must be yearly paid.
21. To have a course or direction.
Where the generally allowed practice runs counter to it.
Little is the wisdom, where the flight so runs against all reason.
22. To pass in thought, speech or practice; as, to run through a series of arguments; to run from one topic to another.
Virgil, in his first Georgic, has run into a set of precepts foreign to his subject.
23. To be mentioned cursorily or in few words.
The whole runs on short, like articles in an account.
24. To have a continued tenor or course. The conversation ran on the affairs of the Greeks.
The king's ordinary style runneth, "our sovereign lord the king."
25. To be in motion; to speak incessantly. Her tongue runs continually.
26. To be busied; to dwell.
When we desire any thing, our minds run wholly on the good circumstances of it; when it is obtained, our minds run wholly on the bad ones.
27. To be popularly known.
Men gave then their own names, by which they run a great while in Rome.
28. To be received; to have reception, success or continuance. The pamphlet runs well among a certain class of people.
29. To proceed in succession.
She saw with joy the line immortal run, each sire impress'd and glaring in his son.
30. To pass from one state or condition to another; as, to run into confusion or error; to run distracted.
31. To proceed in a train of conduct.
You should run a certain course.
32. To be in force.
The owner hath incurred the forfeiture of eight years profits of his lands, before he cometh to the knowledge of the process that runneth against him.
33. To be generally received.
He was not ignorant what report run of himself.
34. To be carried; to extend; to rise; as, debates run high.
In popish countries, the power of the clergy runs higher.
35. To have a track or course.
Searching the ulcer with my probe, the sinus run up above the orifice.
36. To extend; to lie in continued length. Veins of silver run in different directions.
37. To have a certain direction. The line runs east and west.
38. To pass in an orbit of any figure. The planets run their periodical courses. The comets do not run lawless through the regions of space.
39. To tend in growth or progress. Pride is apt to run into a contempt of others.
40. To grow exuberantly. Young persons of 10 or 12 years old, soon run up to men and women.
If the richness of the ground cause turnips to run to leaves, treading down the leaves will help their rooting.
41. To discharge pus or other matter; as, an ulcer runs.
42. To reach; to extend to the remembrance of; as time out of mind, the memory of which runneth not to the contrary.
43. To continue in time, before it becomes due and payable; as, a note runs thirty days; a note of six months has ninety days to run.
44. To continue in effect, force or operation.
The statute may be prevented from running - by the act of the creditor.
45. To press with numerous demands of payment; as, to run upon a bank.
46. To pass or fall into fault, vice or misfortune; as, to run into vice; to run into evil practices; to run into debt; to run into mistakes.
47. To fall or pass by gradual changes; to make a transition; as, colors run one into another.
48. To have a general tendency.
Temperate climates run into moderate governments.
49. To proceed as on a ground or principle. Obs.
50. To pass or proceed in conduct or management.
Tarquin, running into all the methods of tyranny, after a cruel reign was expelled.
51. To creep; to move by creeping or crawling; as, serpents run on the ground.
52. To slide; as, a sled or sleigh runs on the snow.
53. To dart; to shoot; as a meteor in the sky.
54. To fly; to move in the air; as, the clouds run from N.E. to S.W.
55. In Scripture, to pursue or practice the duties of religion.
Ye did run well; who did hinder you? Gal 5.
56. In elections, to have interest or favor; to be supported by votes. The candidate will not run, or he will run well.
1. To run after, to pursue or follow.
2. To search for; to endeavor to find or obtain; as, to run after similes.
To run at, to attack with the horns, as a bull.
To run away, to flee; to escape.
1. To run away with, to hurry without deliberation.
2. To convey away; or to assist in escape or elopement.
To run in, to enter; to step in.
To run into, to enter; as, to run into danger.
To run in trust, to run in debt; to get credit. [Not in use.]
1. To run in with, to close; to comply; to agree with. [Unusual.]
2. To make towards; to near; to sail close to; as, to run in with the land; a seaman's phrase.
To run down a coast, to sail along it.
1. To run on, to be continued. Their accounts had run on for a year or two without a settlement.
2. To talk incessantly.
3. To continue a course.
4. To press with jokes or ridicule; to abuse with sarcasms; to bear hard on.
To run over, to overflow; as, a cup runs over; or the liquor runs over.
1. To run out, to come to an end; to expire; as, a lease runs out at Michaelmas.
2. To spread exuberantly; as, insectile animals run out into legs.
3. To expatiate; as, to run out into beautiful digressions. He runs out in praise of Milton.
4. To be wasted or exhausted; as, an estate managed without economy, will soon run out.
5. To become poor by extravagance.
And had her stock been less, no doubt she must have long ago run out.
To run up, to rise; to swell; to amount. Accounts of goods credited run up very fast.
RUN, v.t.
1. To drive or push; in a general sense. Hence to run a sword through the body, is to stab or pierce it.
2. To drive; to force.
A talkative person runs himself upon great inconveniences, by blabbing out his own or others' secrets.
Others accustomed to retired speculations, run natural philosophy into metaphysical notions.
3. To cause to be driven.
They ran the ship aground. Acts 27.
4. To melt; to fuse.
The purest gold must be run and washed.
5. To incur; to encounter; to run the risk or hazard of losing one's property. To run the danger, is a phrase not now in use.
6. To venture; to hazard.
He would himself be in the Highlands to receive them, and run his fortune with them.
7. To smuggle; to import or export without paying the duties required by law; as, to run goods.
8. To pursue in thought; to carry in contemplation; as, to run the world back to its first original.
I would gladly understand the formation of a soul, and run it up to its punctum saliens.
9. To push; to thrust; as, to run the hand into the pocket or the bosom; to run a nail into the foot.
10. To ascertain and mark by metes and bounds; as, to run a line between towns or states.
11. To cause to ply; to maintain in running or passing; as, to run a stage coach from London to Bristol; to run a line of packets from New Haven to New York.
12. To cause to pass; as, to run a rope through a block.
13. To found; to shape, form or make in a mold; to cast; as, to run buttons or balls.
1. To run down, in hunting, to chase to weariness; as, to run down a stag.
2. In navigation, to run down a vessel, is to run against her, end on, and sink her.
3. To crush; to overthrow; to overbear.
Religion is run down by the license of these times.
1. To run hard, to press with jokes, sarcasm or ridicule.
2. To urge or press importunately.
1. To run over, to recount in a cursory manner; to narrate hastily; as, to run over the particulars of a story.
2. To consider cursorily.
3. To pass the eye over hastily.
1. To run out, to thrust or push out; to extend.
2. To waste; to exhaust; as, to run out an estate.
To run through, to expend; to waste; as, to run through an estate.
1. To run up, to increase; to enlarge by additions. A man who takes goods on credit, is apt to run up his account to a large sum before he is aware of it.
2. To thrust up, as any thing long and slender.
RUN, n.
1. The act of running.
2. Course; motion; as the run of humor.
3. Flow; as a run of verses to please the ear.
4. Course; process; continued series; as the run of events.
5. Way; will; uncontrolled course.
Our family must have their run.
6. General reception; continued success.
It is impossible for detached papers to have a general run or long continuance, if not diversified with humor.
7. Modish or popular clamor; as a violent run against university education.
8. A general or uncommon pressure on a bank or treasury for payment of its notes.
9. The aftmost part of a ship's bottom.
10. The distance sailed by a ship; as, we had a good run.
11. A voyage; also, an agreement among sailors to work a passage from one place to another.
12. A pair of mill-stones. A mill has two, four or six runs of stones.
13. Prevalence; as, a disease, opinion or fashion has its run.
14. In the middle and southern states of America, a small stream; a brook.
In the long run, [at the long run, not so generally used,] signifies the whole process or course of things taken together; in the final result; in the conclusion or end.
The run of mankind, the generality of people.
I am not in a competition with you Jerry!!! I not really answered your questions since I asked you to please go back over some to the previous scriptures and explain them to me and you said:
quote:
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Before we go any further, would you please at least go back to these first two points that you have made and show me where you think I am off track in my understanding these passages?
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I am in the process of doing that right now.
I do not see any sign of you doing what you said you were in the process of doing right now, instead you keep asking new questions and not dealing with my questions or the verses I have brought up.
Now that I find our you were keeping a tally, I know why! We are coming at this whole thing from different angles.
In Christ,
Jim
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 22:23:38
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Hi Jim,
You said,
quote:
show me where you think I am off track in my understanding these passages?
I'm still doing that right now, by showing you the scriptures that go against your belief. Once you see and understand the scriptures that go against your belief then you will understand those other passages.
You asked me to prove you wrong and that is what I am doing. I fully realize that you want me to stay away from these scriptures that go against your belief. You want me to cover the scriptures that you use to back up your belief. I will get to them when I am finished going over the scriptures that go against your belief.
Set #6
James 2
"17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
Romans 4 for comparison.
"5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
What these verses mean to Jerry:
James 2:17,20 26 - James says this three times in the same chapter. If you have faith but you don't have any works, your faith is dead. Faith + No Works = DEAD
Romans 4 - If you have faith but you don't have any works, your faith is still counted for righteousness.
Faith + No Works = Righteousness
What do these verses mean to you?
In Christ,
Jerry |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 06:54:49
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Hi Jim,
Set #7
James 2
"21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"
Romans 4 for comparison
"2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God."
What these verses mean to Jerry:
James 2: Abraham was justified by works, when he had offered Issac his son upon the alter.
Romans 4: If Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God.
What do these verses mean to you?
In Christ,
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 11:07:29
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Jerry, I have a question for you, what does dead mean? There are a group of people that believe that when we die we are annihilated and that we cease to exist. Are you one of those people?
There is another group that goes to Gen 2 and 3 where die is first mentioned and understand death not as ceasing to exist, but rather it means we are seperated from something that was meant to be together, and we can no longer preform the purpose we were created for.
For example God told Adam the day that he ate, he would die. On that day did Adam cease to exist or did he become seperated from God, and since he was created to fellowship with God, he was no longer able to preform his original purpose he was designed to have fellowship with God and now under these conditions he was no longer able to do that?
This same concept applies to physical death, one group believes when our bodies die we cease to exist. The other group believes the body and spirit are made to be together and body is to serve the spirit, but at death there is a seperation and the body, can no longer serve it's purpose, but we do not cease to exist.
How do you define death? Do you mean something ceased to exist, or that it is no longer able to preform it's original function? Or do you define it another way?
Please get back to me so I can answer your question.
James 2 and Romans 4, the word justified is like the word run, it has several different meanings, and the context tells us which meaning is meant.
From the context in Romans 4 we know Paul is talking about when Abraham was first justified in Gen 15:6.
James is talking about an event that happened at least 26 years latter, in Gen. 22
Hebrews the 11th chapter confirms that there were two seperate events and we are told the second event was a test, Abraham the believer, was being tried.
Now, here is the problem with these two passages, if they are talking about the same event and if justified means the same thing in both places than Abraham was justified by faith alone without works(Romans 4), and by faith with works(James 2) at the same time. This is not a dispensational issue since they both apply to Abraham and there was no change in dispensations. These are opposites it would be like saying justified by grace, through works and Romans 11:6 and other passage does not allow both to apply to the same topic. Paul said to study to show ourselves approved, to me that means searching the scriptures to make sure I undertand what they mean instead of jumping to conclusions.
Let's look at the word justified, when we do we find out it has more than one meaning.
Two of the meanings of justified are:
1. To be made and declared righteous
2. To demonstrate righteousness
As believers we are justified by faith and made and declared righteous by God.
Christ was said to be justified, in:
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
He demonstrated his righteousness in the Spirit. He was not made righteous, He showed He was righteous by doing all of the law!
Now let's look at the two statements about Abraham.
In Romans, Abraham was justified by faith alone, without works. This is where God made and declared Abraham righteous based on Abraham's faith in God's grace and mercy, without any works at all.
In James we are not dealing with justification in the sense of being declared, righteous, that happened over 26 years earlier. We are now dealing with a believer, and his faith is being tried. The purpose of those trials are to mature a believer (James 1).
The fact that Paul tells us that Abraham was already justified, by faith without works 26 years earlier tells us that he was already a believer when the second event happened. If he needed to be justified in the sense of becoming a believer again than he was never justified the first time, but if he needed to be justified in the sense of demonstrating his righteousness than everything fits perfectly together.
In James 2 we have a believer demonstrating his righteousness through faith and works together. The fact that Abraham was willing to do what God said, showed or demonstrated that he was justified, 26 years earlier, and he was justified in the second case in the same sense that when Jesus did the law He demonstrated that He was justified, He was demonstrating His righteousness.
In all dispensations our faith in God is what justifies us (makes us righteous,) but the purpose of faith is that God makes us righteous,because we can not do it ourselves, once we are made righteous (saved) it is faith plus works that demonstrate that righteousness to God, to ourselves and to the world.
Paul's writings teach the same thing:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Verses 8 and 9 show how we are justified, by faith apart for works, verse 10 shows how we demonstrate that justification to the world, it includes faith and works, but not the works of the law, because we are not Israel,and the works of the law were for Israel.
In Abrahams day he did not do the works of the law either, because the law came 400 plus years latter, during David's time the saved were saved by faith, but they did the works of the law, to demonstrate they were saved, because they were God's chosen people Israel, and the righteousness of God was demonsrated through them doing the law. In our day it is, has changed again, but now the righteousness of God is revealed through us apart from the law!
We are saved by faith, but the righteousness of God is revealed through us apart from the law. Our works are not related to Israel's law. The body of Christ is not Israel, and the righteousness that God gives us is not revealed through Israel's law.
Just so I make it clear Jerry, the Romans passage means to Jim that Abraham was saved by faith,(justified)
The James passage means that the saved Abraham demonstrated he was saved(justified), by faith plus works.
One of the things saving faith should produce is good works, if it does not produce good works, you are still saved, eternal salvation, but you are not being delievered(saved) from sins in your life, in other words you are saved from the penalty of your sins, but on the practical side you are not saved, from the power that sin holds over your everyday life. Your faith is not of any profit for daily living, your faith is dead, it is useless, in saving you from your sins. Your faith still exist, but it is not fulfilling the purpose it was designed for.
We all know what it is like to believe in Christ, and yet be walking in the flesh. How much profit is there in such a life? Are we still saved, yes, but our lives are a complete mess, we are not saved from ourselves and our sins. Unbelievers are not attracted to Christ through such a life, and we are not of any use to other believers either. We are shown to be righteous only when we are walking by faith in Christ, and He is producing good works in our lives and through us. Then believers and unbelievers see that we are justified and are attracted to Christ, in us.
In Christ,
Jim
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Edited by - vanschoonhoven on 04/18/2007 15:05:53 |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 17:17:11
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Hi Jim,
You said,
quote:
Jerry, I have a question for you, what does dead mean? There are a group of people that believe that when we die we are annihilated and that we cease to exist. Are you one of those people?
There is another group that goes to Gen 2 and 3 where die is first mentioned and understand death not as ceasing to exist, but rather it means we are seperated from something that was meant to be together, and we can no longer preform the purpose we were created for.
For example God told Adam the day that he ate, he would die. On that day did Adam cease to exist or did he become seperated from God, and since he was created to fellowship with God, he was no longer able to preform his original purpose he was designed to have fellowship with God and now under these conditions he was no longer able to do that?
This same concept applies to physical death, one group believes when our bodies die we cease to exist. The other group believes the body and spirit are made to be together and body is to serve the spirit, but at death there is a seperation and the body, can no longer serve it's purpose, but we do not cease to exist.
How do you define death? Do you mean something ceased to exist, or that it is no longer able to preform it's original function? Or do you define it another way?
Please get back to me so I can answer your question.
You do not need my definition of death in order for you to tell me what you believe a verse means to you. My time is limited here. I will be going over verses that go against your belief and asking you what they mean to you. I do not have the time to get sidetracked. I will touch on the things you are asking when I am finished covering scriptures that go against your belief.
Set #8
James 2
"25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"
What this verse means to Jerry:
Rahab the harlot was likewise, as Abraham, justified by works when she had received the messengers and sent them out another way.
What does this verse mean to you?
in Christ,
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 23:51:34
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Jerry, since you will not define what you mean by certain terms your answers are not making any sense to me.
For example can you tell me what you think the word justified means in James?
Does it mean the same thing to you as it does in Romans 4?
In Christ,
Jim
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 06:21:53
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Hi Jim,
My answers are not making any sense to you because you do not believe the bible means what it says and you do not rightly divide the scriptures.
When one passage of scriptures says works are not involved and another passage of scriptures says works are involved, they say opposite things. You already have it set in your mind that salvation was always by grace through faith not of works. So when I give you a scripture that shows you otherwise it does not make sense to you.
If you would just believe the bible means what it says, as it says it, where it says it, it would all make sense later. You need to adjust your beliefs to match the bible, but you are trying to make the bible match your beliefs, this is why some of these scriptures and my answers don't make sense to you. There are many, many scriptures that go against your belief.
As I said many times before, you are taking the doctrine given to Paul for the dispensation of grace and trying to apply it to all time, but there are too many scriptures that go against that. Therefore the scriptures that I will be covering will continue to not make any sense to you because they tell us that works were once involved for someone's salvation but you already have it set in your mind that you don't believe that.
Set #9
Psalm 1
"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."
For comparison
Romans 4
"5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
Romans 5
"6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly."
What these verses mean to Jerry:
Psalm 1
In a nutshell: The righteous delight in, keep and meditate in the law of the Lord and will stand in the judgment and be in the congregation of the righteous. The ungodly are not so, they shall not stand in the judgment, nor in the congregation of the righteous and the way of the ungodly shall perish.
Romans 4
God is now justifying the ungodly
Romans 5
In due time Christ died for the ungodly.
What do these verses mean to you?
In Christ,
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 09:57:39
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Jerry thanks again for your reply.
However, I did not say I do not understand the scriptures you are going over, I do understand them and I do not have to make them fit into my beliefs, when I read them in context, and see who they are written to and what time period they apply to and check out the definitions of words, they all make perfect sense to me.
The part that I said I do not understand is your answers, and when I ask you to clear something up, you do not even want to define the terms you are using.
God is going to reveal something to you, I am sure of that, and it will be to His glory, once you see that you are doing the very thing that you say that I am doing.
Grace means undeserved, unmerited, unearned favor. All of mankind have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, this includes from Adam until now. The penalty for those sins are death. That is what every single one of us deserve. If God saves any one, it is because He is giving us His grace, the undeserved, unmerited, favor of God.
This is not a dispensational issue, sin has always been sin, and the penalty has always been death, I am sorry you do not believe what the scriptures teach from start to finish. We have all needed a saviour, through out all times! Just the word saviour demonstrates we are receiving grace instead of what we deserve. Some one does for us what we could not do for ourselves. Like Jesus said, with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
Please think about answering my questions, and letting, me know what you mean by certain terms, with out an understanding of terms there is no communication, just nonsense.
In Christ,
Jim |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 17:03:56
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Hi Jim,
Now I do have to agree with you that God did show his grace and mercy because he should have squashed this planet and it's inhabitants a very long time ago. God is merciful, and he didn't squash the earth because he loves us.
EVERYONE that ever gets saved, regardless of when, will have their sins paid for by Jesus Christ. Jesus said,
"6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
You cannot bypass Jesus Christ and get to the Father. It ain't happening.
Back in the old days before the dispensation of grace, God used the law to bring people unto Christ. In Psalm 19 it says,
"7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."
And Paul said in Galatians 3
"24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."
No one at anytime has ever been justified by their faith, but rather by the faith OF Jesus Christ. In Galatians 2 it says,
"16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
In Isaiah 53 it says,
"11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: BY HIS KNOWLEDGE SHALL MY RIGHTEOUS SERVANT JUSTIFY MANY; for he shall bear their iniquities."
Everyone that gets justified at everytime will be justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. Those people that were under the law and also the people that are under grace. Everyone. The law never justified anyone, but as Paul said in Romans 2,
"13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."
Did doing the works of the law justify them? NO WAY! Doing the works of the law never justified anyone. Did their faith justify them? NO WAY! No one's faith ever justified them either. How were they justified? By the Faith OF Jesus Christ.
Your faith can get you saved, your faith can also be counted for righteousness, but your faith cannot justify you from your sins. You are only justified by Christ.
Those people that did the law (the doers of the law shall be justified) were not justified by their works neither were they justified by their faith they were justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.
In Romans 8 it says,
"33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."
Who does the justifying?
God does.
If God says, "Do the law and I will justify you", then you had better do the law. If God says, "I'm going to justify you by faith without the deeds of the law", then doing the law is not required, but faith only.
Faith was always involved, works at one time were involved but under grace they are not involved. Today under grace, keeping the law is not involved in one's salvation, it is faith and faith alone. But as always, it is not your faith that justifies you but rather Christ's faith.
Paul said in Romans 3,
"21 BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;"
and in Chapter 6
"14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."
Unlike during the old testament, God is not using the law today to bring people unto Christ, he is using the gospel, how that he died and paid for everyone's sins.
During grace we are sealed unto the day of redemption. The old testaments saints did not have this. The salvation that we have today was not like the old testament saints.
quote:
However, I did not say I do not understand the scriptures you are going over, I do understand them and I do not have to make them fit into my beliefs, when I read them in context, and see who they are written to and what time period they apply to and check out the definitions of words, they all make perfect sense to me.
The problem with this is, your context consist of everyone at all times being saved by grace through faith not of works. Your context consists of works never being involved.
If I quote a scripture such as:
"24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
And I say that it means this to me:
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
And you tell me that you don't have a problem with the scripture but you have a problem with my answer? What do you want me to say? How about:
Ye see then how that by FAITH a man is justified, and not by WORKS.
Then I would be saying exactly the way you believe, is that what you want me to do? If I said this, then it would make sense to you?
What kind of answers do you want from me? I've already told you I believe the bible means what it says, as it says it, where it says it.
Do you want me to say:
Works really means faith.
Good really means believers.
Evil really means non- believers.
This is what you do. This is not what I do. What certain terms do you want to know from me? To me:
Works means works.
Good means good.
Evil means evil.
Set #10
Psalm 9
"17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."
For comparison:
Romans 5
"6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
Ist Timothy 1,
"15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."
What these verses mean to Jerry, (short version):
Psalm 9
Wicked (ungodly)people are going to hell.
Romans 5
Christ came and died for the ungody (wicked)
1st Timothy
God is now saving the wicked (ungodly, sinners)
What do these verses mean to you?
In Christ,
Jerry
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 19:18:46
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Jerry, you know exactly, what I have asked you to do, for some reason you just do not want answer simple questions like: does justified always mean the same thing? Do you define justified the same when Paul uses it and when James uses it.
What is wrong, with asking how you define death???
You also know that context many times determines the meaning of words.
I believe God is teaching you something, but you do not want to hear, it and that is okay, you will hear it at the right time. Like I said, wait until you figure out you are doing the very thing that you say that I am doing.
I am taking a break from this topic unless someone else posts asking to see what I think James is talking about, if they do then I will make a post about James other wise, I am done for a while, I may come back to this topic in a few weeks.
Grace, unmerited, unearned favor, we all deserve death, anyone that gets other than death, has been shown Grace!!!
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 21:50:14
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Hi Jim,
I said,
quote:
You do not need my definition of death in order for you to tell me what you believe a verse means to you. My time is limited here. I will be going over verses that go against your belief and asking you what they mean to you. I do not have the time to get sidetracked. I will touch on the things you are asking when I am finished covering scriptures that go against your belief.
Set #11
Psalm 34
"15 The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.
16 The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth."
What these verses mean to Jerry:
"15 The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.
16 The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth."
Jerry
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 11:35:39
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Psalm 34
"15 The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.
16 The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth."
Who are the righteous?
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
We all deserve death, if we get something other than death, we are saved by God's undeserved favor...grace!
In Christ,
Jim
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 22:49:43
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Jim,
You started this challege by saying that saints of all time were all saved the same way. The old testament saints were not saved by grace through faith not of works, they were not sealed unto the day of redemption, but rather had to endure unto the end with their works involved.
The church the body of Christ (the one new man) does not begin at Adam. It did not start until after the cross. Christ had to die for our sins first and break down the middle wall of partition in order for it to happen.
You asked,
quote:
Who are the righteous?
Back to set #3
Ezekiel 18
"24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive."
Is the righteous the righteous person that turned away from his righteousness and did all that the wicked man doeth and died in his sin or is the righteous the wicked man that turned away from his wickedness and did that which was lawful and right and saved his soul alive?
I've got at least a hundred more scriptures that go against your belief but I'm starting to firmly believe I am wasting my time with you. You still refuse to believe the scriptures and just like I said before, you use all the scriptures that back up your belief and stay away from the ones that go against your belief.
Before the dispensation of grace, works and faith were required for salvation, but today during the dispensation of grace works are not required anymore.
Set #12
Romans 2
"6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:"
What these verses mean to Jerry:
Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Jim, What do these verses mean to you?
This is becoming an endless debate just like I told you it would. How much longer do you want to do this? You are not going to believe any scripture I give you that goes against your belief, just like I told you that you wouldn't.
If the Apostle Paul were alive today and he looked you in the eyes and told you these last scriptures, you would tell him he was wrong. You would tell him that people were always saved by grace through faith not of works.
If the Apostle James were alive today and he looked you in the eyes and told you these scriptures,
"17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
you would tell him he was wrong. You would tell him that people were always saved by grace through faith not of works.
If Jesus Christ appeared to you and he told you,
"28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
you would tell him he was wrong. You would tell him that people were always saved by grace through faith not of works.
The same would go for Moses, Ezekiel, Peter, John and anyone else that wrote scriptures that went against your belief.
I give you scriptures that go against your belief and I ask you what they mean to you and you refuse to answer. The ones you do answer, you twist them around to make them say what you believe.
You don't believe Jesus.
You don't believe Moses.
You don't believe Ezekiel.
You don't believe Paul.
You don't believe James.
You don't believe Peter.
You don't believe John.
So you are surely not going to believe anyone else in the bible or me.
Why?
Because you do not believe the bible means what it says. As I stated before, all my teachings are based upon the King James Bible, believing it means what it says. You do not believe it means what it says, therefore we are never going to agree.
In Luke 16 it says,
"31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
There is no possible way that I am going to persuade you that salvation was not always by grace through faith without works. Why? Because you do not believe Moses or the prophets.
I have plenty more scriptures that go against your belief. Why should I bother posting them if you are not going to believe them? Are you going to explain to us what they mean to you, even if they say exacty opposite of what you believe? Or will you keep silent about them?
What are you trying to prove here?
I asked people in my bible study group if they were following along in this topic. You know what I was told?
" I quit following along, that Jim guy doesn't believe the bible."
I'm not the only one that feels that you don't believe the bible. Everyone watching in feels the same way.
So how much longer do you want to continue this? This is my website, I'm not going away. I very graciously allow you to come here and post your doctrines and beliefs, this is what the challenge forum is for. But you are not changing anyone's mind about the holy scripture. All you are doing is proving to them that you do not believe the bible means what it says.
Do you wish to continue proving to them that you do not believe the bible means what it says?
I still have many more scriptures to dig into that go against your belief. Do you want me to cover every last one of them?
In Christ,
Jerry
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2007 : 00:23:31
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Jerry, I never said the body of Christ started with Adam, why did you imply that I did?
Jerry you said:
Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Jim, What do these verses mean to you?
They mean that know one would be saved, because a few verses latter it says everyone is a sinner and that none seeks God!
Actually, I agree with both James and Paul, you are the one that disagrees, because you take the scripture out of context and do not know what the words mean.
You said:
I asked people in my bible study group if they were following along in this topic. You know what I was told?
" I quit following along, that Jim guy doesn't believe the bible."
I'm not the only one that feels that you don't believe the bible. Everyone watching in feels the same way.
They should join in and demontrate where I went wrong, on the scriptures I have used, this is something, that you have never been willing to do.
The point is I know I believe the bible, but I also know that there are others that have read these remarks and contacted me off the board, they think I believe the scriptures.
By the way, who is the teacher at your bible study? Maybe that is the reason they agree with you.
Jerry, you can stop any time you want, no one is forcing you to go on.
At some point you will see that anyone that is saved does not get what he deserves, instead he gets grace, saved.
In Christ,
Jim
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patjerrymoore
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2007 : 01:04:50
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I don't have time to read the entire topic, how do you guys have time to write it, I will never know. It seems to me that both of you are wasting time that could be spent better elsewhere. Jerry you wanted to challange people, that's why you have a forum for such. If you can't handle it, then do away with this forum. You are only getting what you asked for, "A Challange".
Every time someone begins to beat you down, you start accusing them of not believing the bible. I don't want to hear it anymore. Either knuckle down and debate the man or give up. Use your KJV or whatever, and believe the bible means what it says. But on the other hand you don't really believe that Jim does not believe the bible do you?
I believe Jim does believe the bible. I can't imagine someone going through all that trouble debating you, if he really didn't believe the bible in the first place. To me that sounds like a cop out.
Sorry to ruffle your feathers, but you need to get real. It's always the same same with you, someone disagrees with you and that means they don't believe the bible. You have told me that several times. Well I am one person in your bible study that will but heads with you. I have been around a little longer than some of your other students, and I will believe you when I think you are right, but not every word that PROCEDETH out of your mouth like some of them do. It aint happining.
I believe you are a very good teacher and I have been with you for a very long time and hope to stay with you longer, but you really need to drop this topic or continue on like a man. To accuse someone of not believing the bible is just as bad as name calling.
JerryM |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2007 : 06:44:51
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Hi Jerry Moore,
quote:
Jerry you wanted to challange people, that's why you have a forum for such. If you can't handle it, then do away with this forum. You are only getting what you asked for, "A Challange".
I made the challenge forum availabe for those who disagreed with my teachings that they could voice their opinion.
It took me almost 2 hours to type what I did last night. I was going to work on something else. You said,
quote:
I don't have time to read the entire topic, how do you guys have time to write it, I will never know. It seems to me that both of you are wasting time that could be spent better elsewhere.
You are correct. This is my point.
quote:
Every time someone begins to beat you down, you start accusing them of not believing the bible. I don't want to hear it anymore.
What do you mean by this?
quote:
But on the other hand you don't really believe that Jim does not believe the bible do you?
I truly believe that Jim does not believe the bible means what it says.
quote:
I believe Jim does believe the bible. I can't imagine someone going through all that trouble debating you, if he really didn't believe the bible in the first place. To me that sounds like a cop out.
Maybe he doesn't have anything else to do.
quote:
Sorry to ruffle your feathers, but you need to get real. It's always the same same with you, someone disagrees with you and that means they don't believe the bible.
If someone disagrees with the bible then they do not believe the bible. I have nothing to do with it.
quote:
I believe you are a very good teacher and I have been with you for a very long time and hope to stay with you longer, but you really need to drop this topic or continue on like a man. To accuse someone of not believing the bible is just as bad as name calling.
I come across people that don't believe the bible all the time and I say that they don't believe the bible. Jim is far from being the only one. Why do you think that is like name calling?
Jimmy Swaggart does not believe the bible means what it says. The guy from Bethany does not believe the bible means what it says. I could go on all day long and say this about people.
Jerry Moore, come over to my house and do my ministry work for me to give me the time to continue discussing this endless topic with Jim. Come package up DVD's to mail out, check e-mails, learn software to make the interactive time chart, research scriptures, and so on and so forth.
This topic is going nowhere.
Jerry Moore, do you believe that salvation was always by grace through faith not of works?
Ezekiel 18
"24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive."
Romans 2
"6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:"
What do these scriptures mean to you?
Jerry
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2007 : 10:17:13
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Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
From Adam on all have sinned and deserve death, by the obeidence of one, grace is poured out.
Sin did not just happen in this dispensation, all sinned and all need grace to be saved, if they did not receive grace, they would get what they deserved death. It was given to them not based on their obeidence, but on Christ's.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Jerry you have still never gone to when the law was give, and looked at what the purpose of the law was.
You have never dealt with the fact, that the law was given to point out sin, not add something to the covenant given to Abraham, which was based on salvation by grace.
You refuse to believe that the Law was a covenant of condemnation and death.
You fail to believe the lawful purpose of the law, is to point out a need for a saviour.
When asked about salvation by the disciples after hearing and seeing the event with the rich man here was what Jesus said:
Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
If this is not showing works verses grace than what did Jesus mean by it?
With God all things are possible, remember this is talking about salvation. No hope with men, but grace makes it possible.
Remember all have sinned and all deserve death, the saved have been given life instead of death, that is God's grace, unearned favor, otherwise no one would be saved ever!
In Christ,
Jim
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patjerrymoore
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2007 : 13:15:37
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quote:
Jerry Moore, do you believe that salvation was always by grace through faith not of works?
Actually no. I agree with you on this subject. I just wish you would handle things in a different manner, rather than tell everyone that they don't believe the bible. Some people just don't see what you see. It is not fair to judge them to the point of saying they don't believe the bible. How about saying, they don't have the understanding. There is a big difference. In 1980 I did not see things the way I do now. It was not that I did not believe the bible, I just did not know how to rightly divide, and I had a lack of understanding. But even then I believed the bible to the best of my narrow understanding. You need to cut people some slack. Everyone is not as advanced in their understanding as you.
JerryM |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2007 : 18:07:48
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Jim,
Please give me your phone number where I can call you and talk to you about this matter.
My e-mail address is kingjames1611@cox.net
I have plenty of scripture to cover with you. It takes me over an hour to type what I can say in less than five minutes.
I will give you a call Sunday after church about 1:00 PM Central time if that is OK with you. Or you can call me collect at 225-664-5739. I have much work to do and this would be more time efficient for me.
Thanks,
Jerry
Jerry Moore,
A long time ago right after I got saved my wife and I had a discussion about Mary the mother of Jesus being a virgin her entire life. I was raised Catholic and that is what I was taught and that is what I believed.
She showed me in the scripture where Mary had children besides Jesus.
My choices were to believe the bible means what it says or to believe what I believed. I chose to believe the bible means what it says and dropped my belief of Mary being a virgin her entire life.
I have done this many times over the years - make my beliefs match what the bible says. And I still do that, the latest was just a couple of months ago concerning whether Peter knew after the cross that Christ had paid for sins before Paul. I was taught that he did not know, but the scriptures indicate otherwise so I changed my beliefs to match what the bible says.
It is not hard to do, if I can do it anyone can.
But I see your point, my understanding of the scriptures grows just like everyone else's. The subject of Peter knowing about Christ dying for sins is not flat out given in the scripture with a verse that says,
"Peter then knew that Christ had died and paid for sins"
But when you compare spiritual things with spiritual, the answer becomes more clear. But I never took a verse and turned it completely around to say something opposite such as,
"Peter then knew that Christ had died and paid for sins"
and turn it around to say,
"Peter then knew NOT that Christ had died and paid for sins"
which would be exactly opposite of what the first sentence would say. That would be just flat out denying what the first sentence said.
Believing a verse and not understanding a verse is two different things. You can believe it means what it says without having any understanding of it.
For instance when we met many years ago I shared with you Ephesians 2 and James 2 that deal with no works involved and works involved respectively. You saw that they said different things and you believed that they said different things but you didn't understand why.
The point here is that you believed the scriptures but you didn't understand the scriptures.
This is OK. The understanding eventually came. But the point is you believed it meant what it said.
This is the first step of understanding the word of God, just believing he means what he says whether you understand it or not. God gives the understanding, he just requires you to believe. He can open your eyes to the scripture at any time he desires to do so.
But if you would have not believed the scripture, for instance taking one side or the other and rejected the scriptures that went against what you believed, you would not have been given the understanding that you have today. You would still be the same as you always were.
So you did well by believing the scriptures meant what they said, the Lord opened up a whole new world of understanding for you. He is the one that opens up people's eyes to the scripture, not the teacher, the teacher is just a vessel, a guide, the Holy Spirit is what gives you the understanding.
They are still plenty of scriptures in the King James Bible that I don't understand, but I believe they mean what they say. I will not take them and make them say opposite of what they really say. I realize the understanding will come later as the Lord opens my eyes.
Jerry |
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patjerrymoore
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2007 : 18:58:09
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Yea you right,if one twist the scriptures that is not believing the bible means wht it says. However some people have been taught wrong and really believe what they are seeing is true, like me back in 1980. So as far as some people that disagree with you, I will admit they are twisting scripture to fit their beliefs, but not all. Just try to figure out which the case may be. Thanks for the explanation.
JerryM |
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Glen
65 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2007 : 01:49:51
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Hi Jerry, and Jim.
I would agree with Jims stance on this issue, Adam was gave one restriction and failed, and that was before the transfere (imputed sin nature) of the curse entered the picture, so if Adam couldn't keep one of Gods commands what would be the chance of those afterward being able to? NONE!
If salvation was within reach of mans merit none ever passed the test, without Gods imputed spirit they all were helpless to follow God, wisdom didn't cut the mustard, a man after Gods own heart failed, who was worthy to break the seal? only one man ever lived the life layed out by scripture, the beatitudes are impossible! be perfect like your Father in heaven, only one could do that, none of the twelve could pick up the cross till after the cross, they all scatterd when the shepherd was struck,
The Spirit made them bold for Christ not there flesh nature which would be where works would be imputed if works were being counted toward salvation along with Christ blood, Gods requirment for are flesh is death not regeneration of the old man, so only the new man can have works so called, and that would be by the Spirit not are flesh, instead its allways been belief, or none belief that brings blessing or curse.
Just like today we believe were justified, sanctified, though are actions, and thoughts wouldn't be inline with the standerd thats being imputed to us, but are failure doesn't erase the imputation.
I think Jim made a solid case with Abraham, and the other facts that Paul dealt with all the way back to the first Adam, and it was never addressed by you Jerry, instead you take the I know what the Bible mean so just take my word for it NO WAY.
Glen
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2007 : 06:24:13
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Hi Glen,
You said,
quote:
I would agree with Jims stance on this issue, Adam was gave one restriction and failed, and that was before the transfere (imputed sin nature) of the curse entered the picture, so if Adam couldn't keep one of Gods commands what would be the chance of those afterward being able to? NONE!
If salvation was within reach of mans merit none ever passed the test, without Gods imputed spirit they all were helpless to follow God, wisdom didn't cut the mustard, a man after Gods own heart failed, who was worthy to break the seal? only one man ever lived the life layed out by scripture, the beatitudes are impossible! be perfect like your Father in heaven, only one could do that, none of the twelve could pick up the cross till after the cross, they all scatterd when the shepherd was struck,
The Spirit made them bold for Christ not there flesh nature which would be where works would be imputed if works were being counted toward salvation along with Christ blood, Gods requirment for are flesh is death not regeneration of the old man, so only the new man can have works so called, and that would be by the Spirit not are flesh, instead its allways been belief, or none belief that brings blessing or curse.
Just like today we believe were justified, sanctified, though are actions, and thoughts wouldn't be inline with the standerd thats being imputed to us, but are failure doesn't erase the imputation.
I think Jim made a solid case with Abraham, and the other facts that Paul dealt with all the way back to the first Adam, and it was never addressed by you Jerry, instead you take the I know what the Bible mean so just take my word for it NO WAY.
I don't quite understand what you meant, but you have a right to take Jim's opinion if you want to. But you are wrong about me not addressing the situation. This topic was not begun in this challenge forum but rather here:
http://forums.gracebiblestudy.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=250
Not only have I addressed his opinion but I am still addressing it. Right now I am in the process of showing the many scriptures that go against his belief - that the saints of all ages were saved by grace through faith not of works.
Jim's position is that works were never involved in someone's salvation inwhich the bible has many, many scriptures that go against this position.
Please go back and read all of these posts and all of the ones in this challenge topic and you will see that I have addressed him time and time again why the bible teaches otherwise.
There are many people and religious denominations that take Jim's position so it is a very common thing, it is not unusual at all.
But on the other hand, there are many people and religious denominations that say works were involved for the saints of all ages and they use scripture to back up their belief also.
I take the position that at one time works were involved but during the dispensation of grace they are not involved anymore and after grace is over they will once again be involved with one's salvation.
There are basically 3 different positions that someone can take on this issue:
Position #1
There are plenty of scriptures for each side to use. If you belief that no works were involved in someone's salvation you can take that position and use all the scripture to back up your belief and avoid the scripture that go against your belief such as Jim does.
Position #2
If you are on the other side and believe that works were always involved in someone's salvation you can use all of the scripture that backs up your belief and avoid the scripture that goes against it such as the Pentacostals do.
Position #3
But you can also take the position that there was a time for when works were involved and a time when they are not involved and take all the scripture without avoiding any of them and rightly divide the scripture and show where all the scripture has a time and place. This is what I do and the position I take.
In Christ,
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2007 : 11:13:13
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Jerry, you are actually doing the very thing that you say everyone else does, you are only looking at the scriptures that on the surface, back your system of belief. That is not to say you are not right about me, you may be right, but you are doing the same thing and can't see it.
For years I held the same position that you did. What changed my mind?
I started to attempt to deal with all the scriptures. I found clear passages that said I was wrong.
This caused me to look at the passages I had thought taught salvation by faith-works and read them more carefully in context, I discovered I had not been reading them in context, there wer 100's of them and all taken out of context, I discovered I had not been studying to show my self approved, but rather taking other people's word for things and assuming passages said things they did not say, if studied carefully.
I discovered, I was very poor at understanding what different words mean, I assumed a definition was correct without looking into the matter.
I also did not appreciate the sinfulness of sin, when I held your position. Yes, I knew sin was bad, but some how I over looked all the scriptures that said without a doubt all of mankind is sinful and none seek after God. Once you take that one thing into account, and believe that the result of that sin is death, you know that if anyone is getting something better than that, it is because of God's grace.
Once you use the word grace or faith, the word works no longer can apply. The scriptures teach that grace is the opposite of works, they also teach that faith is the opposite of works.
Now what this does not mean, it does not mean that the believers of all generations had to believe the same thing. This generation has been given the most details about God's grace, but even now completely apart from our sanctification, God has prepared good works for us to walk in, but they are apart from the law, because the law, was given to Israel, God's chosen nation.
Once they were saved, they were to walk in the good works of the law, it was suppose to manifest the righteousness of God, and lead the gentiles to God. They failed to do that and because of that the nations blasphemed God. That is why there was a need for a new covenant, because Israel, could not obey the old one and lead the gentiles to God. Even King David was thankful he was not going to be judged by his ability to keep the law. Even after he was a believer, he could not keep the law, and just one sin is all it takes to break the whole law and deserve death.
When Israel disobeyed the law it became a ministry of death, and condemnation to them, they were cursed by the law, because they could not keep it. This we are told was to show them they all needed a saviour. Some like David believed and it was counted as righteousness just like their father Abraham did. There again the very word saviour shows you are getting something you do not deserve, this is grace.
Everything that I have said, so far is based on the word of God, I do believe the scriptures, and I do believe they say what they mean, but sometimes we do not understand what they mean. That is what this discussion is about.
Jerry, I commend you on this point, at least, you now understand about Peter knowing about the forgiveness of sins, before Paul told him.
But the point is even when you believed the other way, you were still a bible believer, wasn't you??? I believe you were.
And if we apply that to this issue, even though you disagree with me, I still believe you are a bible believer, and I am a bible believer too, that is not at issue, what is at issue it what does the bible really teach. That is the point of this challenge.
You have a tendency to resort to name calling (Jim you don't believe the bible) rather than just deal with the issues, not only that but you are blinded to the fact that you do it.
I can not judge you on that, because that is one of my biggest sins. As a brother, I would beg you to consider what the other guys have said, about how you discuss things, this has as much to say about you as getting things right. To talk about grace, is one thing, to have God display it in our lives, when dealing with brothers is another thing. Once again please do not think, that I believe this is a problem that Jerry has, that Jim does not have, because Jim has it too!
I have been contacted off line about this discussion, the main concern has been how you are reacting, even believers that side with you are concerned. As a brother I am telling you this, out of love, how you take it is between you and God. Some folks are afraid to tell you these things because they do not want to be attacked, please consider what their main point is, stop attacking people that disagree with you just present the scriptures and they will speak for themselves.
Some of the people agree with me and some agree with you, but they have all encouraged me, and told me they believe I do believe the scriptures. They have also said, I am presenting scriptures and thoughts about those scriptures that are making them think and study, that is my goal.
Think about it Jerry if you really want to contact me let me know, I will, get my number to you, but I will not be home on Sunday until, about 1:30 west coast time.
If you do call please be ready to discuss the scriptures I bring up too, you have never done that, and people know that, if you are calling to argue, it will be a short conversation. So consider again if you want to call me and post it here if you do and I will see it and get my number to you.
If you call it sounds fair to me if you bring up one scripture and we both will discuss it and then I get to bring up a scripture and we will both discuss it, and we can go back and forth as brothers looking into the scriptures together.
In Christ,
Jim |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2007 : 18:20:22
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Hi Jim,
I've already told you many times the scriptures you are using from Paul's epistles pertain to the church the body of Christ during the dispensation of grace.
There are many scriptures outside of Paul's teachings that go against his doctrine for the dispensation of grace.
You have to compare spiritual things with spiritual in order to see this. You do not.
You take verses that say,
"24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
And say they mean the opposite of what they say. You do not believe the bible means what it says.
There are many, many people that believe like you do. Then there are many, many people that believe opposite of what you do and believe that works were always involved. Where did they get this idea from? They got it from the Holy Scriptures, because there are many verses that tell us that works were involved at one time.
Then there are some people that believe both sets of verses and rightly divide them.
People were not always saved by grace through faith not of works, and they were not always sealed unto the day of redemption. Many people had their works involved in their salvation and they had to endure unto the end or they would not be saved.
If I wanted to, I could use all the verses you use and teach what you teach.
Or I could use all the verses that the Pentacostals and such use and teach that works were always involved.
Or I could use all the scriptures and rightly divide them and show when each apply.
You want me to go over just the scriptures you use and leave the others alone. If I did so, then I would come to the same conclusion as you.
But when we go into the scriptures that go against your belief, you want to jump back to the scriptures that back up your belief. There are hundreds and hundreds of scriptures that go against what you believe, but yet you have not used the first one to back up your belief, because you can't, they don't match.
I can go to all those verses in Paul's epistles and use them and say we are saved by grace through faith not of works and how we are not under the law and believe them with all my heart. But I can also go to all the scriptures that go against Paul's doctrine for grace and believe them with all my heart, because I know that they do not pertain to the doctrine that Paul is teaching for grace.
I have tons of scriptures to show you that go against your belief. I want to talk to you and go through the scriptures with you out of Moses' writings, the prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Job, and even out of the new testament.
I want to ask you what they say and then ask you what they mean and see if you twist them around. If what you tell me does not match what it says, then I will ask you again to read the scriptures and tell me what it says then I will ask you again what it means. And I will continue asking you what says and what it means until they match.
If they never match then I will tell you once again that you do not believe the bible means what it says.
Why do you feel that is name calling? If you don't believe it means what it says, then you don't believe it means what it says. I run across this situation all the time, it is not at all uncommon. My job as a teacher is to get people to believe the bible means what it says.
If all I do is cover the verses that you want me to cover, then I will never be able to show you the ones that go against your belief.
I know how to teach, I will not be sidetracked.
I've already told you that I will go over again the ones you want me to cover when I am finished going over the ones that go against your belief.
You come to my website and challenge me over an issue. I tell you if you do not believe the bible means what it says that this will be an endless debate and so far it has. 3 years from now and many posts back and forth this issue will continue to go on.
If you believed the bible means what it says we could end this tonight, but I can see that is not going to happen.
Therefore I want to talk to you over the phone. As I said, I can cover a lot more ground just talking with you rather than having to type everything. If you are interested, please give me your phone number, or call me collect. We will set up a mutual time.
Please ignore my firmness. I am very firm in what I believe and sometimes it sounds like I am being harsh. I don't mean to sound like that but that is just the way it comes out. It's just the teacher in me.
If you want to see some real name calling, go to Matthew 23 and see what Jesus laid on the Pharisees.
Thanks,
In Christ,
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2007 : 11:22:01
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Jerry you said:
I've already told you many times the scriptures you are using from Paul's epistles pertain to the church the body of Christ during the dispensation of grace.
You did say that, but you would not show from the scriptures, that those things only applied to the body of Christ, the context shows they applied to Abraham, King David, and the Jews!!!
Do you expect me to take your word for it, instead of showing me what those scriptures actually teach?
Jerry, before I give you my phone number, are you willing to agree to a format, to talk about this subject? Here is one that I would agree to, if you don't like it, give me any example of one you would agree to.
You would get to bring up a verse first and we will talk about it, and then I will bring up a verse and we talk about it? Then it is your turn again and than it is my turn.
I am very interested in a discussion about what the scriptures teach on this subject, but it needs to be a fair discussion and not one of us calling the other to prove our point, and trying to force the other one to believe what they believe, without a consideration of the scriptures the other person considers to be important to the subject.
So far you have avoided the scriptures I have brought up, in fact that is why I started this challenge, we had started under the subject of what does Romans 4 teach about Abraham's salvation, and you would not look at Romans 4, but kept bring up other scriptures and you did not discuss Romans 4, so I started this challenge.
At this point I am still wondering, if you are willing to look at both sides with me? If you are please make it clear and I will give you my number.
If you are willing to learn too, than so am I, but I do not want to listen to a one sided presentation that does not interact with all the scriptures.
You said,
You come to my website and challenge me over an issue.
Of course I challenged you, I thought that was why you had the Challenge section, I read the rules, and thought you were the kind of person that wanted open discussion on the scriptures, and that you wanted to allow any one to chanllenge you on any topic as long as they used the scriptures.
To me that is also a willingness to learn from scriptures, but so far, you do not seem to be willing to look at the scriptures I have brought up, and when I ask you direct questions about word definitions, you don't even want to define your terms. I hope you are willing to still learn as well as teach.
In Christ,
Jim |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 07:28:53
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Hi Jim,
Well, or you going to call me or not? I will not be told what I can and cannot discuss over the phone.
I have addressed Romans 4 and Galatians many times. Here is my answer ONE MORE TIME!
The things Paul teaches concerning salvation by grace without works pertain to the body of Christ during the dispensation of grace. Romans 2 and parts of 3 Paul tells us about how it was before.
In order to see this, you have to compare spiritual things with spiritual. By comparing what Paul says during the dispensation of grace with what others say outside of the dispensation of grace you will see very clearly that salvation was not always by grace through faith without works.
You and I already know what Romans and Galatians and the rest of Paul's epistles teach about salvation by grace through faith not of works. I apply them to the dispensation of the grace of God given to the Gentiles. You apply them to all time.
Why do we differ? Because outside of Paul's epistles there are many, many scriptures that show us that works were once involved in salvation, but you refuse to believe them. You want to believe what Paul says and apply it to all time.
How many more times do I have to answer you the same thing?
You said,
quote:
So far you have avoided the scriptures I have brought up, in fact that is why I started this challenge, we had started under the subject of what does Romans 4 teach about Abraham's salvation, and you would not look at Romans 4, but kept bring up other scriptures and you did not discuss Romans 4, so I started this challenge.
I haven't avoided anything. I keep telling you that in Romans 4 Paul is telling us how it is today and in Romans 2 he tells us how it was before. In fact it starts before Romans 4 because in Romans 3 it says,
"21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;"
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
We already agree that in Paul's epistles, all of them, not just Romans and Galatians, that he teaches salvation by grace without works. This is not where we disagree. Where we disagree is the scriptures outside of Paul's epistles teach that works are involved. These are the scriptures that we need to cover.
Almost everything in Paul's epistles teaches salvation by grace through faith not of works. Where do we disagree on those things? We don't, except for the fact that you apply these teachings to all time and avoid all the other scriptures that go against your belief.
How many times must I answer you the same thing?
We need to cover the scriptures that go against your belief so that you can see that works were once involved. We need to compare spiritual things with spiritual.
But you do not want to do that.
You just want to cover verses that back up your belief and avoid the ones that go against your belief.
I have shown very clearly that all of Paul's teachings, not just Romans 4 and Galatians, teach that salvation is now by grace through faith not of works. But I have also shown very clearly by Paul himself in Romans 2 and many other scriptures outside of Paul's teachings show that works were once involved in someone's salvation.
Are you going to call me or not?
In Christ,
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 11:27:08
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Jerry,
you said:
Well, or you going to call me or not? I will not be told what I can and cannot discuss over the phone.
I was not telling you what you can or can not discuss, I was attempting to get you to agree how we would discuss things. I even left it wide open for you to make a suggestion, which you have not done.
I find it very interesting that you could discuss all of Romans 4 and Gal 3 in such a short post. You have not discussed these chapters at all, you are simply stating what you hope it teaches without looking at it.
To say that Paul's teachings only deal with this dispensation when He spends whole chapters dealing with Abraham and how he was saved, and how the OT saints were saved, is off track, you are not rightly dividing the scriptures, Paul clearly is talking about salvation in another age.
The fact that you quoted me saying the following:quote:
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So far you have avoided the scriptures I have brought up, in fact that is why I started this challenge, we had started under the subject of what does Romans 4 teach about Abraham's salvation, and you would not look at Romans 4, but kept bring up other scriptures and you did not discuss Romans 4, so I started this challenge.
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And your answer is the following:
I haven't avoided anything. I keep telling you that in Romans 4 Paul is telling us how it is today and in Romans 2 he tells us how it was before. In fact it starts before Romans 4 because in Romans 3 it says,
"21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;"
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
This demonstrates my point, you do not look at a comment in Chapter 3 that clearly deals with salvation in the age of grace, and apply it to Chapter 4 where Paul is talking about the salvation of Abraham, David, and other OT saints, that is not right division.
Right division is to look at Romans where Paul says: Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Now unless I completely do no understand, Paul is not talking about salvation in the age of grace in this passage, He is talking about salvation in the time of Abraham, and David.
See we do not agree on this and you do not seem to want to discuss these scriptures.
As for me calling you, since you do not want to agree on how we would go about this discussion, currently I see no need to call you to just hear you say what you have already written.
If we were planning on both sharing and looking at all the scriptures, that would be different, but I sense that is not your desire, let me know if I am wrong.
All good teachers are good learners!
Once again you said:
We already agree that in Paul's epistles, all of them, not just Romans and Galatians, that he teaches salvation by grace without works. This is not where we disagree. Where we disagree is the scriptures outside of Paul's epistles teach that works are involved. These are the scriptures that we need to cover.
Almost everything in Paul's epistles teaches salvation by grace through faith not of works. Where do we disagree on those things? We don't, except for the fact that you apply these teachings to all time and avoid all the other scriptures that go against your belief.
Jerry, you know what we disagree on, it is the teaching that Paul teaches that the saints of all ages were saved by grace, He teaches this in Romans 4 and 5 and Gal 3, and there may be other places too!
In Romans 5 Paul actually talks about salvation and sin and goes all the way back to Adam, in that context he says:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Just as through one man all sinned, all are saved by the grace that comes through the obedience of the one, Jesus.
According to Romans 5:20 the law entered that sin would abound (not save) and where sin abounds, grace abounds.
In Romans Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
In: Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
The purpose of the law was not to save, but to demonstrate sinfulness, this was to force people to believe in God's promise, instead of their deeds that would always fall short!
If the wages of sin are death and all men have sinned, all men deserve death, any man that escapes that reward for their sins does so by grace, God's unearned favor. There is no combination of grace and works.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Now when you go back and look at those OT passages you keep bring up, do they promise salvation, or do they promise salvation to those that do all the works of the law all the time? If so, how many people would that be?
Only JESUS!
Jerry, just as you had guidelines that I have to follow, in order to post on this challenge board, so I want to see some guidelines concerning our telephone discussion, and unless you agree to some sort of guidelines, I will not call you, I have no need to make you believe the same things I do, I simply wanted to present what I believe the scriptures teach about salvation, since it is not the same as what you teach.
You have done a great job of presenting your beliefs, thanks!
In Christ,
Jim
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 15:38:46
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Hi Jim,
You said,
quote:
I have no need to make you believe the same things I do, I simply wanted to present what I believe the scriptures teach about salvation, since it is not the same as what you teach.
Then are you finished? Did you get your point across? Are we done here?
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 11:34:39
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Jerry, I almost sense you are mad, I sure hope you are not.
You asked if I am done, I think I am for right now, but I may come back and start answering some of the specific scriptures that you have brought up.
You ask if got my point across, I hope some people will take a closer look at the scriptures and study them to find what they teach.
It is clear that Paul was teaching about OT salvation, and he used Abraham as the focus to reveal that teaching, it is interesting how he applies how Abraham was justified to the believers in this age:
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
In both dispensations righteousness was imputed and Abraham's being imputed to him for righteousness was recorded so that we would know that our righteousness was imputed to us the same as Abraham's righteiousness was. This is why all that live by faith call Abraham father, and it does not matter if they were Jews or Gentiles, he is our father, because we believe by faith, just as he did.
Thanks again for this for, it is a good idea.
Have a nice day, Jerry!
In Christ,
Jim |
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Saints of all ages saved by grace
