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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
 Posted - 04/04/2007 : 23:23:54
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I may have misunderstood, but I believe that one of the things Jerry teaches is that the Saints have not always been saved, by grace, if that is what he believes I challenge, him on this point, and I promise to use only the KJV in this challenge.
In Christ,
Jim |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 00:53:47
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I want to make sure how this Challenge actually gets started, does Jerry reply to my challenge or do I need to write why I believe the saints were always saved by grace and then he replies to that?
Another thing, I want to make sure, Jerry believes the saints were not always saved by grace. If I misunderstood him and he believes the saints were always saved by grace, then I will withdraw my challenge.
In Christ,
Jim |
Edited by - vanschoonhoven on 04/09/2007 18:51:15 |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 07:10:07
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Hi Jim,
I don't have any problem with your challenge except that it has no end to it. If you use the King James bible it's not going to make any difference because you don't believe it means what it says. From what I can tell you don't believe the New King James means what it says either.
Teaching is my number 1 priority because it is what the Lord called me to do. But I have many other things that I need to do also.
Here are my choices:
Today is Saturday. Today is the day I work on my house. This is where we meet for bible studies and church. We started on this house 3 years ago and I'm not finished yet. Not including the lawn care which I have to do, I have to do flooring and painting, put up ceiling boards, do trimwork etc.
That is just the building. My other ministry work includes building the time chart to get it ready for distribution. I was off yesterday so I worked on the time chart all day. I still have many months to go to get it ready. I could work on the video ministry. I need to make more copies and box them up. I also need to learn some editing software. I need to write articles for the time chart and the website. I need to go visit people in our church. And the list goes on and on. This is not counting my job to produce income for me and my family.
I could do any of these things or I could sit here and cut and paste scriptures for you to read that you won't believe anyway.
What would you do?
Any scripture that I show you that goes against your belief you will not believe, so why should I bother? Your mind is already set.
I have this guy I work with at my job. We talk all the time about many things but we will not discuss scripture. Why? Because he does not believe the bible means what it says. It is pointless to discuss scripture with someone that doesn't believe the scripture means what it says.
Nevertheless, if someone else comes along that believes the scriptures mean what they say and they want me to show them the scriptures that disagree with your teaching then I will accept your challenge, and stop what I am doing and get started typing.
But you have already proved to me that you don't believe the bible means what it says, therefore I can't prove to you anything which means that this will be an endless debate.
I am a bible teacher, not a belief debater.
Even if someone else comes along and wants to see the scriptures and I show them and prove it to them, you will still not be convinced and will want to continue discussing what you believe. Endless.
In Luke 16 it says,
"31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
In Christ,
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 13:23:26
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Jerry, I have to admit, that I am kind of sad, by what you have stated, but is is not sadness for myself, but rather for you. You are not showing grace towards me. The name of your site, is Grace Bible Study, I would expect that your ministry would, be centered on Grace.
You keep repeatedly saying that I do not believe the scriptures, but we have gone through that several times, you know that I do believe the scriptures are true, and that they say exactly what they mean.
The difference is, I belief the Greek Majority Text is the preserved word of God. Now you keep condemning this belief, by stating that I do not believe the scriptures. Where is the GRACE?
On your Challenge page you say several things that I want to point out.
Jerry said:
Unlike most church and religious organizations, we consider a challenge a good thing.
These bibles have two different meanings of the same verse, therefore they will never match. In any challenge here at Grace Bible Study the final authority will be the King James Bible.
We do not have a problem with you disagreeing with us.
If you would like to discuss an issue in a friendly debate, you are more than welcome and this forum was designed to do just that.
So if you want to stick to the Holy Scriptures we will gladly accept your challenge and you will be most welcome here. Enjoy!
Now, didn't my challenge take you at you word? I know you believe the KJV and I have agreed to use that transaltion, because I believe it teaches what I have stated, that the saints of all ages are saved by grace. And rather than showing Grace, you tell me I do not believe the scriptures!!!
What you and me disagree on is not what the scriptures say, but what does it mean, what does it teach.
Our disagreement has not focused on me or you not using the scriptures to back up what we are saying, but rather you and I believing those scriptures do not back up what the other person is saying.
I understand you are busy and that you have no desire to respond to this Challenge, I accept this.
I also know that you are blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: and that we are raised us up together, and made to sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. And I rejoice with you about these things.
Inspite of our disagreements I rejoice, with you and give thanks that you are His, that you know Him!
Now to anyone else that wants to except this challenge here it goes.
I believe the scriptures teach the saints of all ages are saved by grace.
I have copies of Jerry's Grace Bible Study, the Beginner's series volume 1.
Jerry does a very good job of pointing several things out on this DVD.
Jerry talking about salvation goes to Romans
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. From these verses alone, I think we can say the bible clearly teaches that there are none righteous. There are none that have a right standing with God.
To make sure we get God's point he declares in
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
These are not dispensational truths that only apply to those in the dispensation of GRACE, but rather are statements about all of mankind, that have ever walked the face of the earth.
In Romans the 5th chapter God makes it clear that all (of all times) have sinned!
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
I could spend a lot of time on this issue of sin, but I think most of the people on this board would know that everyone has sinned. So rather than going into greater details about the sinfulness of all men, I will go to the next step.
Again I refer back to Jerry's DVD on Salvation.
Jerry refers to Romans 6
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
This verse clearly teaches that the wages of sin is death. Is this a dispensational truth, or is it a fact of all ages?
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Wasn't the wages of sin death, even for Adam?
Isn't death what we have earned, aren't the the wages for our works, death and not just in this dispensation, but all dispensations?
I could go on and on proving that the wages of sin is death, for all mankind, but again I believe most of the people on this form already know this.
On another thread, on this site, I asked Jerry to define Grace, after all if we are saved grace, it is important to know what the word grace means and since this is the Grace Bible Study website, we should really know what grace means.
The following is the definition that Jerry gave:
Grace - unmerited favor
Webester's dictionary said this about umerieted:
Unmerited
UNMER'ITED, a.
1. Not merited; not deserved; obtained without service or equivalent; as unmerited promotion.
If we check out the word service, we see it is connected to labor, or work.
Romans has this to say about Grace:
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
In Ephesians grace is also put opposite of works:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
In Romans 4 God is talking about how Abraham was saved. In verse 4:4 God points out that if Abraham's reward(in context his salvation) was based on work, it was what was owed Abraham (a debt) and not by grace. However, God clears it up and in verse 4:5 God tells us Abraham did not work for his reward(salvation), it was given to him because he believed.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
I want to point out a few points based on the scriptures we have looked at so far.
1 we are all sinners
2 the wages of sin is death
3 if we get what we have earned, what we have worked for, what we deserve we would get death, not salvation to eternal life.
4. the saints of all ages did not get what they earned, they get unmerited favor! It was unearned, undeserved, favor, their salvation.
5. They were saved by the grace of God, and according to Romans 11:6 grace can not be based on works or it is no longer grace!
If I have misunderstood any of the scriptures I mentioned, please take through these scriptures and show me where I went wrong.
More to come!
In Christ,
Jim
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Edited by - vanschoonhoven on 04/09/2007 15:11:25 |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 14:54:07
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Hi Jim,
quote:
If I have misunderstood any of the scriptures I mentioned, please take through these scriptures and show me where I went wrong.
The problem is you are taking Paul's teachings of grace during the dispensation of grace and applying them to all time. You are not rightly dividing the word of truth.
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 17:50:12
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Jerry, I would ask you to go through each of those scriptures and show me which ones do not apply to all ages, because from the context they look like they do, but if you can show me what makes you think they don't, I am more than happy to see what you have to say.
Go step by step and demonstrate where those scriptures are only for this dispensation. Let the scriptures speak for themselves, they are simple and clear, and if you are right, it should be easy to show me where I went wrong.
It is not fair or right to make a blanket statement that you do not back up with scriptures. I backed up every statement with a scripture, because I believe the scriptures and I do rightly divide.
Paul is writing to the body of Christ, but some times he is telling us about things that went on in other dispensations Romans 1-5 is a perfect example of this, otherwise why is Abraham and David mentioned? Because he is explaining how we have something in common when it comes to salvation.
Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
What is the blessedness that the circummcision, has that the uncircumcision also has? The context tells us.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
I eagarly await a responds to my first post, I am more then willing to believe the whatever the scriptures actually teach, but you as a teacher shoud be able to show me where I went wrong, dispensationally speaking.
In Christ,
Jim
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Edited by - vanschoonhoven on 04/09/2007 15:14:33 |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 20:08:17
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Hi Jim,
OK. I'll go through it one more time with you, but instead of just hitting a few scriptures I'm going to do a thorough teaching on the subject. Just give me some time to wrap up a few loose ends.
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 00:31:49
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Jerry, if you want to do a more complete study that is okay, I look forward to seeing it, but the complete study should deal with the verses I have mentioned, and give answers to the points I have made, showing me where I have gone wrong.
If you do not deal with these scriptures I will have to wonder if you are not willing to believe these scriptures, I am asking for a biblical answer, not just you claiming I don't understand rightly dividing.
I have mentioned before there are a lot of well known right dividers that have commentaries out there, that agree with my position on these scriptures. May be you define rightly dividing differently than they do. As a matter of fact, how do you define rightly dividing?
You should be able to read the context of these verses and show me where I have gone wrong.
Looking forward to your first biblical reply to the scriptures I have mentioned!
In Christ,
Jim |
Edited by - vanschoonhoven on 04/09/2007 15:17:20 |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 15:49:40
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This is a continuation of how God justified Abraham by grace, faith and apart from works.
Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Notice that Paul speaks of this blessedness is upon the circumcision!!!
In other words the circumcision have this blessedness. What blessedness is he talking about. In context Paul tells us it is the blessedness which Abraham had and that David talks about.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
This is a very clear statement of how Abraham recieved righteousness and it was with out works.
So the blessedness the circumcision had, was that God imputeth righteousness to them without works!
Paul,'s question is, are the Jews the only ones that can have this blessedness, or can the Gentiles have it too!
If you look back on Chapter 3 you see Paul telling us in this age that all would be saved by faith alone without works, he knew the Jews would have a problem with this, so here in Chapter 4 Paul is going into details about how Abraham was made righteous and to prove it is the same way that everyone is justified in this age too.
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Here Paul proves that being circumcised (works) had nothing to do with being made righteous, since he was made righteous before he was circumcised. But Paul goes on and presses home the point that it was done this way so that Abraham could be the father of all that believe, in other words the Gentiles that are being saved by faith apart from works, like Paul mentioned in Chapter 3.
Line by line Paul is showing that salvation in this dispensation is based on the promise given to Abraham and comes to us the same way that salvation came to Abraham, by grace, faith, and apart form works.
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Here again, Paul proves the law had nothing to do with the promise and being made righteous, it was by grace not works. The law (works) and Grace are opposites. In fact if the law has something to do with this it would be adding wrath, not a blessing.
In Christ,
Jim
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Edited by - vanschoonhoven on 04/09/2007 15:30:15 |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 22:34:52
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As we have been going through Romans 4, a pattern has been forming, both the Jews and the Gentiles can claim Abraham as their father, because we are all saved the same way that he was. The promise to be made righteous came through grace, not law, if it was by the law, it would make the promise null. It came when Abraham believed, without any works of the law. In Romans 3 Paul reveals that is also how the Gentiles are saved. In Romans 4:9-10 we find out this is a blessing that the believing Jews also have been given.
Once again in this last section the Gentiles are tied to Abraham as their father, and told that just as righteousness is imputed to him it is also imputed to the Gentiles that believe.
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Once again Paul introduced salvation by grace, through faith, without works, in Chapter 3 and shows it applies to all...Jews and Gentiles, he knows the Jews will have problems with this, so he goes into details in Romans 4 to prove that people have always been saved by grace, faith, and without works, and shows how the programs is getting broadened to the Gentiles because they are Abrahams childern too, if the believe!
In the next post, I would like to look at what Galatians has to say about how Abraham was made righteous. After that I hope to look at what James has to say about how Abraham was justified.
I know that James was writing to saved Jews and not the church, but he is also writing about a different event than Paul, in fact it was an event that was 26+ years latter, that he teaches about, and tells us how Abraham was justified.
Paul is talking about how to get justified (getting saved), James is talking about the testing of that faith(demonstrating you are saved). One is talking to believers about faith being tested, James 1:2-4 and the other is talking about how to become a saved person, Romans 4.
I am very interested in any interaction on the verses I have covered, if you see them differently I really want to know why, what do you see that I don’t see. I am willing to change my view, if it can be pointed out where I misunderstand these scriptures.
In Christ,
Jim
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Edited by - vanschoonhoven on 04/09/2007 15:36:13 |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 16:53:27
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Hi Jim,
Just wanted to let you know I haven't forgot about you. I'm in the process of working on that article and should have it ready by the end of the week, Lord willing.
How was your Easter?
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 18:46:55
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Jerry, we do not celebrate Easter, we celebrate Resurrection Day, no Easter bunny or Easter eggs, but, the resurrection of our Lord.
It was a great day, but since we focus so much on Christ and His life, at our fellowship, it is alot like everytime we get together! To us being joined with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection is the center of our lives!
A real blessing!
Thanks for asking. How was your day?
In Christ,
Jim |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 21:48:57
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It was good. Like you, we celebrate the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ everyday so it was basicly just another day.
But I'm still glad that at least the world gives him one day out of the year to remember his resurrection.
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 13:31:31
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Galatians 2 and 3 are the next passages I would like to look at concerning salvation, both in this age and in Abraham’s day. I have picked Romans 3 and 4 and Galatians 2 and 3 because in both passages this teaching is dealt directly, salvation in more than one dispensation. You will not find many passages in the scriptures that have both these things being clearly taught in such detail.
In the first part of Galatians 2 we learn about the meeting in Jerusalem, and we see that there is a difference between Paul’s Gospel, and Gospel being preached by the 12. This relates to Acts 15, where we find they decided that the Gentiles did not have to keep the Law.
However, nothing is spoken of about the Jews, and in fact we know they were still keeping the law, we can see that from Galatians 2:11-16 and also from passages such as:
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
But the real problem being dealt with in last half of Gal 2 and 3 is not the Jews believing in Christ and keeping the law, but the Jews once again trying to get the Gentiles that believe in Christ, to keep the law. They have it in their mind that just believing in Christ is not enough. Notice in Gal 2:4-5 Paul refers to Jews that thought like that in Jerusalem as false brethren.
Paul’s answer to this problem is very interesting, because just as he did in Romans, he goes back to Abraham to prove that the Gentiles do not have to do the law to be saved. And the reason he gives in Chapter 3 is because Abraham was saved without the law too!
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Notice in verse 14, Paul asks Peter why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? This is the issue!
In verse 16 He is talking to Jews when he says Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith of the Jesus Christ, even we (Jews) have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Paul talking to Jews that believed in Jesus Christ, but were saved by following the gospel that Peter, James and John were preaching and they were still following the law. And he is saying even they know they are saved by faith and not the by the works of the law, even though they were still following the law.
In verses 17 and 18 Paul once again shows the purpose of the law was to show the Jews they were sinners, which these Jews did agree with, and in vs 20 and 21 he is telling those same Jews that the life they live, they live by faith, and if it is not by faith, but by works they frustrate the grace of God.
After showing that even the Jews that were saved under the gospel being preached by Peter, James and John were saved by faith apart from the works of the law, in Chapter 3, Paul goes much deeper and once again demonstrates to the Jews and the Gentiles that Abraham was saved by faith apart from the law, so that both the Jews and the Gentiles could be his children by faith, and not by the law.
Next time Chapter 3 and how was Abraham saved!
In Christ,
Jim
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 17:35:29
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Hi Jim,
I just got in and I was going to work on that article tonight, but a dear friend of ours had a heart attack and I need to go up to the hospital. I'll get back with you as soon as I can.
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 23:28:39
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Here are some of my thoughts on the 3rd Chapter of Gal. I would love to see your thoughts on them. Jerry will give us his thoughts soon, but Jerry and I are only part of Christ's body, and I would love to hear what some of the rest of you think, based on the scriptures.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
What a great question, I would say we received the Spirit by hearing of faith…not by the works of the Law.
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
I actually fell for this one, and spent a huge amount of my Christian life, trying to perfect myself, instead of allowing Christ to live His life in me! But it does not work, I can not do the works that only Christ can do.
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Here again I believe God does this work in us by faith! This is a great question and the answer must have taken the Jews by surprise, at least the ones that thought Jesus plus their works saved them.
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Even as Abraham believed God… this is the answer to the question does God do this by the works of the law or by hearing of faith, and Paul relates it back to Abraham, he believed and God accounted to him for righteousness. The point being Abraham believed and God did! Nothing at all about Abraham’s works adding anything, and if we try to say that it teaches that Abraham was saved by faith plus works than according to the context, we are saved by faith plus works, because the answer applies to us “even as Abraham”.
We know we our saved by grace through faith apart from works, and this verse is showing that Abraham was too!
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Paul goes to the heart of the matter right here, they which are of faith, the law has nothing to do with being the true children of Abraham, that is produced by faith. It is simple and clear, the children of Abraham are those which have faith.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
This verse looks like God was looking forward to the dispensation of Grace, when He said these things to Abraham, again it looks like Abraham and us have something in common. I believe it is that we are saved by faith, just like he was.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Here again God is talking about us the heathens that believe, are blessed with Abraham. You have to ask yourself, why does Paul keep connecting Abraham with the gentiles, it is repeated over and over and each time the answer is they are both justified, by faith!
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Here is why works had nothing to do with Abraham’s salvation or ours. Unless you can continually follow all of the law, you are cursed by the law. This would also be a good time to bring up Romans 11:6:
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
The Galatians were trying being taught that they were saved through a faith works combination, Romans 11:6 rules this out and so does the whole 3rd chapter of Galatians. Never once does Paul mention works playing any part in the salvation of either the gentiles of this dispensation or in Abraham’s life, in fact repeatedly he shows that the law shows us our sinfulness and leads to a curse.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Paul declares that no man is justified by the law, he does not allow for a saved by faith plus works, he makes it clear that the law has no part in justification, because the just shall live by faith, not faith plus works, but just faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
This verse does not allow for a combination of faith plus works, because we are told the law is not of faith, it is something different than faith, it is based on works, and the one that wants to be saved by the law must live them all, all of the time, if not he will find himself under a curse.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
That the blessings of Abraham might come on the Gentiles, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit-through faith, again the Gentiles receive blessing of Abraham, the same way that Abraham did.
If Abraham was not saved by faith alone, why is there never any mention of faith plus works saving Abraham, and if he was saved by faith plus works than how are we his children, since we are saved differently? It is clear that both Romans and Galatians are explaining in detail how Abraham was saved, and yet after going through so many verses how could Paul have never mentioned Abraham was justified, by his faith and works, in fact the two are always put in opposition to each other, and we are always told that Abraham was justified, by faith.
If any one has a different conclusion I would love to see them go through these passages verse by verse or thought by thought and explain what they mean. If, I do not understand them correctly, it really is my desire to understand them.
I will finish my thoughts on Gal. 3 in another post.
In Christ,
Jim
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2007 : 20:23:52
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Hi Jim,
I finished the article. I left a few things out to cut down on space, but here it is:
Not Always by Grace
After Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, they began to multiply upon the earth. These people, as everyone else, has a soul that will be judged by the Lord. The Lord has to determine whether to give these people eternal life or eternal damnation. He did not give them a gospel to believe, they didn’t know about Jesus dying for sins, they didn’t even know about a kingdom to come.
God gave them very little information if any, so how is he going to judge them? How is he going to determine whether to give them eternal life or eternal damnation?
Will just believing in God get them eternal life? In James 2 the bible says,
“19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”
Why do the devils tremble? Because they know that they will not have eternal life but rather eternal damnation, but yet they still believe in God. In Matthew 25 it says,
“41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”
Even though the devils believe in God, they know what their outcome will be.
Now today we are living in a time where we are saved by grace through faith, not of works as told to us by the apostle of the Gentiles, the apostle Paul. In Ephesians 2 it says,
“8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Because of this wonderful saving grace without any works involved, God can also seal us to where we can’t lose our salvation. In Ephesians 4 it says,
“30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”
This is commonly called eternal security. During this age of grace, your works can’t save you, nor can they make you unsaved. It works both ways. Today your works only go toward your reward.
But it was not always like this. In time past, before the dispensation of grace given unto the Gentiles getting saved was quite different. The apostle Paul tells us how God did it. In Romans 1 the apostle Paul says,
“15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.”
So Paul is going to preach the Gospel of the grace of God to these Romans. In chapter 1 he starts out telling them how corrupt man is and as he gets into chapter 2 he tells them how God dealt with man in time past to determine whether or not he would give them eternal life or eternal damnation. Starting in chapter 2 verse 1 it says,
“Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his DEEDS:”
Now before we go on, in verse 6 it says that God will render to every man according to his DEEDS. What are deeds? Deeds are things that you do. They are your works. Let’s go on.
“7 To them who by patient continuance in WELL DOING seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:”
What is WELL DOING? These are your deeds. If these people are patient in well doing and seek glory, honour, and immortality what will they get? Eternal life.
“8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, INDIGNATION and WRATH,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that DOETH EVIL, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;”
Now what would happen to them if they obeyed not the truth but obeyed unrighteousness, indignation and wrath and did evil, what would they receive? Tribulation and anguish.
“10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that WORKETH GOOD, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:”
But once again what would they receive if they did good works? Glory, honour and peace.
“11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;”
So what would happen to people if they did not have the law but were sinful and did the evil works? They would perish without the law.
“13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.”
Please notice here that it says the doers of the law would be justified. But you need to understand that the law never justified anybody. God does the justifying. If you did the law God would justify you, this is why he said,
“(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.”
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
OK now we are starting to get some answers. God said that even though the Gentiles didn’t have the law, if they did by nature those things that were contained in the law, it would be a law unto themselves.
Everyone that came before the law was given to Moses fell under this. Adam, Noah and everyone else, for the law wasn’t given until Moses.
“15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”
Now please remember that the gospel is to the Jew first and also to the Gentile.
“17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.”
Now watch very carefully as we go through these next verses.
“25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.”
What does it say if a circumcised person broke the law? Thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
“26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
So let’s give a scenario which helps to understand what Paul is saying here. First of all, who was the law given to? To Israel. The Gentiles were not given the Law.
So let’s say that you have a Jew that lives in the land of Israel and you have a Gentile which lives in China. The Jew has the law, but the Gentile does not have the law. The Jew breaks the law, but the Gentile keeps the righteousness of the law. The bible says the Jew’s circumcision is made uncircumcision and the Gentile’s uncircumcision is counted for circumcision. Why is this? Because Paul said,
“13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.”
God said that he would justify the doers of the law, not the hearers of the law. The word of God is very clear about this. THIS IS NOT SALVATION BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, THIS IS SALVATION BY WORKS.
Now let’s compare Romans 2:13 with Romans 3:20 which says,
“20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
Please understand, doing the works of the law will not justify you. The law never justified anybody, never has, never will. But if you did the works of the law, God would justify you. God does the justifying, not the law itself, the law cannot justify anybody. Faith was and is always involved. At this time that Paul is talking about you had to have both, faith and works. The works alone will not justify you, for the bible says in Hebrews 11,
“6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
Anyone that comes to God must believe that he is, this is the first requirement. God has no reason to give eternal life to anyone that does not believe in him. In time past, you had to believe in him and do the works.
As we move into Romans chapter 3 Paul begins to tell us about the dispensation of grace that we are living in today and how different it is from time past. In Verse 21 he says,
“21 BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:”
Notice the words, “BUT NOW”. What does “BUT NOW” mean? But now means at this time, not like time past. Now before we get into the doctrine for the dispensation of Grace, let’s go back into the old testament scriptures and confirm what Paul said in Romans 2 about works being involved in someone’s salvation.
The old testament is full of scriptures that tell us that people’s works are involved in their salvation, so without writing a book to put them all in, we’ll cover just a few here. If you need more, just read the old testament. It’s full of them.
In Deuteronomy it says,
Chapter 6
“25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.”
Chapter 7
“9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.”
Exodus 23
“7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
Psalm 15
“1 LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
2 He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.”
Ezekiel 18
“4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.
10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,
12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,
16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, EVEN HE SHALL DIE IN HIS INIQUITY.
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, AND DOETH THAT WHICH IS LAWFUL AND RIGHT, HE SHALL SAVE HIS SOUL ALIVE.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.”
Now let’s stop here for a moment and compare a couple of verses out of Ezekiel 18. In Verse 18 it says,
“18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, EVEN HE SHALL DIE IN HIS INIQUITY.”
This evil person will die in his sin. He will not have eternal life. But let’s look at verse 27,
“27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, AND DOETH THAT WHICH IS LAWFUL AND RIGHT, HE SHALL SAVE HIS SOUL ALIVE.”
Here it tells us that if the wicked turns away from his wickedness and does that which is lawful and right, that his soul shall be saved.
There are many other scriptures in the old testament that show us the same thing. These things line up with what Paul said in Romans chapter 2 when he said,
“6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:”
“7 To them who by patient continuance in WELL DOING seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:”
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, INDIGNATION and WRATH,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that DOETH EVIL, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;”
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that WORKETH GOOD, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:”
As we get back into the new testament scriptures Jesus tells us the same thing. In John 5 he said,
“28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have DONE GOOD, UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE; and they that have DONE EVIL, UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION.”
You couldn’t miss this if you tried.
Also, There was a man that asked the Lord what he had to do in order to have eternal life. In Matthew 19 it says,
“16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Jesus was teaching to keep the law in order to have eternal life. This is exactly what Paul said in Romans 2 which says,
“13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.”
These things are very clear in the holy scriptures.
Before we go on to more scriptures that show that works were once involved, let’s take a quick trip back to Paul’s epistles and see the difference that we have today. Once again in Romans 3 it says,
“21 BUT NOW the righteousness of God WITHOUT THE LAW is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;”
Now we see that the time we are living in that the righteousness of God without the law is manifested because we are under grace and not the law. In Romans 6 it says,
“14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”
These words that Paul spoke are quite different from what Jesus spoke and what we find in the old testament scriptures. Separating these two doctrines is called rightly dividing the word of truth. In 2nd Timothy 2:15 it says,
“15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
The word of truth has to be rightly divided in order to understand the full word of God. There are many things that are different in the word of God and you need to know why to fully understand it.
Now let’s get back to the scriptures that show that works were once involved. As we get back into the new testament scriptures we will get into the doctrine of the new covenant church which is quite different from the doctrine of the church the body of Christ.
As Jesus did his earthly ministry he walked and talked among the Jews. Many of the Jews saw the miracles that he did and followed him wherever he went. These people saw the Lord. They talked with the Lord. They listened to the Lord. But there were many that never saw him or listened to him or seen his miracles that he performed.
When Jesus rose from the dead he appeared unto the apostles but Thomas was not there. The apostles told Thomas that they had seen the Lord but Thomas would not believe. In John 20 it says,
“24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it]into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”
Now in this last verse Jesus said,
“…because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”
Now here’s the question:
Who is going to be more blessed, those that have seen the Lord and believed or those that had not seen the Lord and believed?
Obviously those that have not seen the Lord and believed.
Why?
In Hebrews 11:1 it says,
“1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
Faith is the evidence of things not seen. If you see something is it faith? NO. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Those people that had not seen the Lord will be more blessed than those that had seen him. How? He can save them by faith, because they have not seen.
Jesus walked and talked among the Jews. He came for the Jews. Many thousands of Jews saw him. He did not come to or for the Gentiles. Paul said in Romans 3,
“30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.”
This verse will be explained later, we need to cover more scripture first.
Now what we have covered so far is what Paul said about the situation in Romans 2, what a few of the old testament scriptures said, and what Christ said in Matthew and John. Now let’s go to the new testament scriptures and see what others have to say about it.
The church the body of Christ is saved by grace through faith, not of works, but not so for the new covenant church that consists of only Jews. Their works were still involved.
In James 2 it says,
“14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”
James asks a question: Can faith without works save a man? And James goes on to give us the answer.
“15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”
In this last verse it clearly tells us that your faith without works is dead. Under Grace, Paul teaches differently which will be explained later.
“18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?”
Once again, faith without works is dead.
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Here we have the third time James says, “Faith without works is dead”. These scriptures are very clear about works being necessary.
In Acts 10 Peter says,
“34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”
Peter also said in 1st Peter 4,
“18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”
In the book of Revelation, John writes to the Jewish churches. Notice what the Lord told him to write.
Chapter 2
"1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:"
Chapter 3
"1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
It is very clear to see here that these Jewish churches have their works involved.
Now as we get back into Paul’s epistles he teaches something quite different. He teaches that works are not involved during Grace but at one time they were. In Romans 3 he said,
“21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;”
And in chapter 11 he says,
“6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”
Notice here he says it is “…no more of works…” showing us that at one time it was.
In Romans and Galatians Paul talks about Abraham’s faith. He does not talk about Abraham’s works, but uses his faith to show us that we also should have faith as Abraham did. Paul tells us that Abraham could not be justified by his works, actually nobody could. Faith was always involved, works alone never saved anyone, you always had to have faith.
So let’s do a recap.
Moses wrote:
“25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.”
David wrote:
“1 LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
2 He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.”
Ezekiel wrote:
18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, EVEN HE SHALL DIE IN HIS INIQUITY.
“27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, AND DOETH THAT WHICH IS LAWFUL AND RIGHT, HE SHALL SAVE HIS SOUL ALIVE.”
Jesus said:
“28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have DONE GOOD, UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE; and they that have DONE EVIL, UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION.”
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Paul wrote:
“13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.”
James wrote:
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Peter wrote:
“18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”
John wrote:
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
The holy scriptures are very clear on this matter. Salvation was not always by grace through faith not of works lest any man should boast. At one time, works were involved in someone’s salvation, but today during grace no works are involved in order to have eternal life.
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 01:29:21
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Jerry, thanks for your reply, but I noticed you did not deal with the passages that directly teach that Abraham was saved by faith and not works. I was hoping to see how you dealt with them.
You keep avoiding them and yet those passages are meant to teach us how Abraham was saved and how us Gentiles are saved. The method of salvation is the topic being taught in Romans 3-5 and Gal 2-3, it is not a side issue but rather the very heart of those passages. I am waiting to see what you think they teach.
I also notice that you do not go to where the law was given and demonstrate the purpose of the law from those passages. Was the purpose of the law stated in the OT when it was given??? I believe it was, why do you not show us those scriptures??? Surely if it was to be used as a faith+works program, God would have mentioned it to them. This would be an important issue, if it was part of God's salvation plan, God would not leave out this purpose, would he?
As for the passages you have mentioned, let me deal with the Romans 1 and 2 passage first.
There is no doubt in my mind that the first two chapters of Romans teach that if any man does the works of the law, he will be saved by doing those works, it matters not, if he is a Jew, or a Gentile, if a man does all of the law (James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.), he will be saved that way.
However, context is an important matter, and if we take something out of context either on purpose or by accident, we have made a mistake.
In this case, I believe you have made a mistake by stopping short. What God gives as an apparent way of salvation, in Romans 1 and 2, actually becomes a ministry of condemnation II Cor. 3:7-9. and Gal 3:10-12
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
For although God opens the way of salvation by works in chapters 1 and 2, we find it is slammed shut in chapter 3 with verses like:
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
And again the door is slammed shut and locked with these verses:
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
In context Paul is addressing the self-righteous Jew, in Romans 2 and 3 and demonstrating to them that if they want to be judged by their deeds, He will do it and every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
This does not demonstrate a plan of salvation, but rather an attempt by God to reach the self-righteous Jew, through using the law, to show them their sinfulness and their need for a saviour.
No one will be saved under the conditions put forth in Romans 1-3, no not one!
I will address another scripture you have mentioned next time!
I await comments on Romans 3-4 and Gal 2-3.
Your brother in Christ,
Jim
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 16:55:53
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Hi Jim,
quote:
I await comments on Romans 3-4 and Gal 2-3.
I already commented on these passages in previous posts, I'm not doing it again. You didn't believe it the first time neither will you believe it the 100th time.
You are still taking the doctrine for the dispensation of grace and applying it to all time. In Romans 3 Paul said,
"21 BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
26 To declare, I say, AT THIS TIME his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Chapter 5
"6 For when we were yet without strength, IN DUE TIME Christ died for the ungodly.
9 Much more then, BEING NOW justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."
Chapter 7
"6 BUT NOW we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."
Chapter 11
"5 Even so then AT THIS PRESENT TIME also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it NO MORE OF WORKS: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
Galatians3
"23 BUT BEFORE FAITH CAME, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 BUT AFTER THAT FAITH IS COME, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Ephesians 2,
"13 BUT NOW in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Chapter 3
"For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Jim, I agree with you on the doctrine you are teaching when it applies to the dispensation of grace, but you are using Pau'ls doctrine for the dispensation of grace and applying it to all time. Once again you are ignoring all the scriptures that go against your teaching.
I gave you over 100 scriptures that go against your teaching and yet you are still trying to convince me you are right by taking Paul's doctrine for grace and applying it to all time.
You do not believe the bible means what it says. I told you that I was not going to get into an endless debate with you. The only way I am going to convince you is for you to believe the bible means what it says, and I can see that is not going to happen.
You haven't convinced me that your belief is correct by avoiding the scriptures that go against your belief. I have stopped my other ministry work to discuss this with you and you still don't believe the scriptures that go against your belief, you only believe the ones that back up your belief.
You told me:
quote:
I eagarly await a responds to my first post, I am more then willing to believe the whatever the scriptures actually teach, but you as a teacher shoud be able to show me where I went wrong, dispensationally speaking.
Once again, all my teachings are based upon the King James bible and believing it means what it says. If you don't believe it means what it says then we do not have a mutual foundation on which to have discussions. Therefore all our discussions will be endless because we will never come to an agreement.
Jim, once again you said:
quote:
but you as a teacher shoud be able to show me where I went wrong, dispensationally speaking.
I keep telling you where you went wrong but you refuse to listen. There are many, many scriptures that go against your belief. Just believe them.
Instead of changing your beliefs to match the bible, you are trying to change the bible to match your beliefs.
Switch it around, try to make your beliefs match the bible, that's what I do.
If the bible says,
"8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Then believe it means what it says. If it says,
"24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Then believe it means what it says. If the two passages say different things then compare spiritual things with spiritual and rightly divide the scriptures.
Taking this verse:
"24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
And saying it means this:
"8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."
is not rightly dividing the scriptures. When two different passages say two different things then they don't mean the same things. Just believe they mean two different things.
I'm sorry Jim, but I do not have the time to explain the same things over and over and over to you, when you should have believed the scripture the first time around. As of right now, I don't see you changing nor do I see myself changing. I have plenty of work to do and so you will have to kindly excuse me because I really need to get back to work.
If my work was not piling up I would continue with you, but I am very busy and I can see that this discussion is going nowhere.
When I get caught up somewhat and if you wish to continue I'll give it another shot, but if you still don't believe the bible means what it says the results will be the same as it has been, in other words, an endless discussion which I do not have the time for. We will be here forever discussing the same issue until the end of time for the scriptures are not going to change. When Christ said,
"29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
It is going to stay like that for all eternity, it's not going to change.
I'm not upset, angry, or anything of the sort. I just don't have the time to continue doing this over and over and over.
In Christ,
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 20:06:07
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Jerry,
You said:
Please understand, doing the works of the law will not justify you. The law never justified anybody, never has, never will. But if you did the works of the law, God would justify you. God does the justifying, not the law itself, the law cannot justify anybody. Faith was and is always involved. At this time that Paul is talking about you had to have both, faith and works. The works alone will not justify you, for the bible says in Hebrews 11,
“6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
Anyone that comes to God must believe that he is, this is the first requirement. God has no reason to give eternal life to anyone that does not believe in him. In time past, you had to believe in him and do the works.
You said doing the works of the law will not justify you, the truth is if you do the works of the law you would not need to be justified, you would be righteous. This is what Christ did, He did the works of the law, because He was righteous.
You also said, but if you did the works of the law, God would justify you. Do you think anyone did the works of the law??? The answer is no! If you did the law God would only be giving you what you had earned.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
The law condemned all men. To do the works of the law required one to do the whole law, all of the time. No one could ever do that!
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
The scriptures clearly teach that all have sinned; therefore no one has ever done the law.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
There are two ways to be righteous, either you do the works of the law, or you receive Christ’s righteousness. One is by works and the other is by grace, there is no faith+works salvation. Being saved by believing is the opposite of works or faith plus works. Faith plus works is another way of saying works.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
You might ask what is the purpose of the law, I would point to these clear teachings about the purpose of the law.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
All of these verse say the same thing the law was given to show men they were sinners and needed a saviour. (grace)To say, but if you do the law, God will justify you is a gross misunderstanding of the sinfulness of man. Who could do such a thing?
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Again you said: Anyone that comes to God must believe that he is, this is the first requirement. God has no reason to give eternal life to anyone that does not believe in him. In time past, you had to believe in him and do the works.
I would ask you where do you find that faith is the first requirement? The scriptures teach that something is either of grace and faith or it is of works. Faith is the only requirement for salvation.
But in the OT believers were to follow the law as a witness to the nations, to lead them to God. In this age we also are saved by grace but God has works for us to walk in:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
In neither dispensation was works a requirement for salvation, but works are a demonstration of us being saved.
I would love to see comments from others out there, I don’t care if you agree with me or not, but base your view on the scriptures and share it with us. In fact if you disagree with me and can show me where the verses I am using are taken out of context, I would be grateful. If how I understand these scriptures are wrong show me, I need to know. Otherwise I will just believe they say what I think they say!
In Christ,
Jim
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 21:33:23
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Hi Jim,
OK. I think I might have time to do this with you. I will go over one verse or set of verses at a time with you starting with the verses that disagree with what you believe. When I am finished doing that, then I will cover scriptures that agree with what you believe.
Set #1
John 5
"28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Now to me this verse means:
That there is going to be a time when everyone in the graves are going to come forth and the people that have done good will come unto the ressurection of life and those that did evil will come unto the ressurection of damnation. The people that did good will have eternal life and the people that did evil will have eternal damnation.
What do these verses mean to you?
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 02:12:55
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Jerry, first off once again you are avoiding looking at the passages that are clearly teaching about salvation in Abraham"s time and this age of Grace. I am not sure why you are avoiding these passages, but at some point you will have to face them. You as a teacher of God's word have a duty, to show me where I am going wrong in my understanding of these passages.
But, I will look at this passage that you have brought up, because once again it does not say what you think it says. It is my opinion that you have a bad habit of not reading things in context. You either do not go back far enough in a passage or you do not go ahead far enough. Of course I could be wrong, but that is my opinion, and I also admit, that God had to break me of that habit. Let's look at why I said that.
You said:Set #1
John 5
"28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Now to me this verse means:
That there is going to be a time when everyone in the graves are going to come forth and the people that have done good will come unto the ressurection of life and those that did evil will come unto the ressurection of damnation. The people that did good will have eternal life and the people that did evil will have eternal damnation.
I say let's start at:
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Now let's look at this passage, who does it say will have life? Him that believeth on Him that sent me.(vs 24) now when we come down to verse 29 we know what it means when it says they that have done good, the good that they have done is, they have believed!
The book of John is one of the few books that tell us the exact purpose of the book:
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The whole context of the book is believing, believe, belief, in fact those words are used 101 times in the book. The words obey and obedience are used 0 times. This is according to my E-sword program.
Here are a few examples:
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
oh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Well I hope you can see a pattern, between believing and getting everlasting life, and not believing and not getting everlasting life.
So now the question is what do you think that good and evil means in verse 5:29.
To me it is very clear, in the context Good means believing and evil means not believing.
By the way you said:
That there is going to be a time when everyone in the graves are going to come forth and the people that have done good will come unto the ressurection of life and those that did evil will come unto the ressurection of damnation. The people that did good will have eternal life and the people that did evil will have eternal damnation.
Do you believe this also applies to those saved in the age of grace?
In Christ,
Jim
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 03:26:55
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Jerry one thing I forgot to mention, if that verse means those people will be judged according to their works either good or bad according to the law.
How many people would receive everlasting life?
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
In Christ,
Jim
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 06:21:51
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Hi Jim,
I'm not avoiding anything. When we get to the scriptures that pertain to the dispensation of grace I will ask you if you believe they mean what they say, but I know you already do. Right now I am going over the scriptures that go against your belief to find out what you believe they mean.
So far this is what we have:
Set #1
John 5
"28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Now to me this verse means:
That there is going to be a time when everyone in the graves are going to come forth and the people that have done good will come unto the ressurection of life and those that did evil will come unto the ressurection of damnation. The people that did good will have eternal life and the people that did evil will have eternal damnation.
What do these verses mean to you?
Your answer:
quote:
To me it is very clear, in the context Good means believing and evil means not believing.
You also asked me a question:
quote:
Do you believe this also applies to those saved in the age of grace?
No.
Next set: #2
Matthew 19
"16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
Now to me, verse 17 means that if you want to have eternal life you have to keep the commandments.
What does it mean to you?
Jerry
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 11:13:18
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Jerry, I am not sure how many of these I am going to do, since you are not answering any of my questions, but I will answer this one again.
By the way I also want to point out on the last questions the reason those that believe receive everlasting life, is because they are savd just like their father Abraham.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Again with the Matthew 19 passage you do not give enough context to see what Jesus was getting at.
Before starting to look at this passage, I would remind you that the lawful use of the law is to make people know they are sinners. In your DVD set Vol 1 on salvation. Before you give people the good news, you first make sure they know they were sinners, once they know they are sinners and need a saviour, you then show them the gospel of Grace.
Jesus is doing the same thing with this man.
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Notice Jesus right from the beginning is up front with this guy and tells him there is none good but one. Compare this with
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Notice he even tells him to keep the commandments if thou wilt. But didn't he also just tell him that there is none that wilt, because there is only one who it good?
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
This shows this man is a liar, and deceived, he does not understand he is a sinner and that he needs a saviour. So Jesus tries to show him again.
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Now this man might understand he is a sinner and that he can not obey the commandments, but rather than admit this and come to the conclusion that he needs a savior he does not deal with his sinfulness and leaves. It is at this point that we start to see what Jesus was really getting at as He gives us an explaination.
Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Now this is a demonstration of what Jesus said earlier there is none good but one. Is it possible for a camel to go through the eye of a needle??? No!
Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
The disciples understand His point, they know this is impossible, so what is their question, well who then can be saved??? They now understand that no one could meet the conditions that Christ has listed. They are thinking no one can be saved!
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
With men this is impossible, in other words no man can be saved by keeping the commandments, because no man keeps them.
But with God all things are possible, points out that God provides a savior, which also speaks to grace and not works. For the wages of sin are death, and that is what everyone deserves, but God steps in.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So to answer your question, in context Jesus is using the law, in a lawful manner to prove that no one can keep the commandments, so that this man will see a need for a saviour.
You did not say what that verse means to you.
Before we go any further, would you please at least go back to these first two points that you have made and show me where you think I am off track in my understanding these passages?
In Christ,
Jim
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 18:19:23
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Hi Jim,
You said,
quote:
In fact if you disagree with me and can show me where the verses I am using are taken out of context, I would be grateful. If how I understand these scriptures are wrong show me, I need to know.
That is what I am doing.
quote:
Before we go any further, would you please at least go back to these first two points that you have made and show me where you think I am off track in my understanding these passages?
I am in the process of doing that right now.
Set #3
Ezekiel 18
"24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive."
To me this means in verse 24, that if a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and starts doing all the abominations that wicked people do that he will die in his sin. All his righteousness that he has done in his past will not be mentioned unto him.
It means to me In verse 27 that if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he is doing, and does that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
What do these verses mean to you?
Jim, it is not necessary to give long explanations of why you feel that they don't mean what they say, just a short answer of what the verses mean to you will be fine. Like you said, we will just take them at face value.
I already know what they say, I just need to know what they mean to you.
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 21:30:58
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I think it is time to get back to the last part of Paul’ teaching on how Abraham was saved, and the connection between how he was saved and how we are saved today.
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
A simple statement of fact covenants were to be honored, even men’s
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
A clear statement that the covenant that was given by promise to Abraham would not be modified in any way by the covenant of the law. Since the promise provided salvation by grace, through faith apart from the works, this means the purpose of the law could not be salvation, if it was it would have modified the covenant made to Abraham.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Here we have another way of saying something is either by grace or by works, and the promise was given to Abraham by promise. (grace)
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
So if the law was not meant as a way of being saved what was it’s purpose. It was added because of transgressions. One has to ask, if this is another way of saying to show us our sinfulness.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
No the law is not against the promise, it is actually there to support the promise, by showing us our sinfulness so that we would believe. It is so wonderful to see how this promise that we Gentiles believers so cherish, was in fact given to Abraham so that we would some day be able to share in being made righteous by believing in Christ!
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
This is beautiful the law shows us all as condemned:
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
The law condemns so that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. We have to see our sinfulness before we know of our need to receive righteousness by faith alone. If we do not see our sinfulness we see no need to accept the promise.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Which comes first law or faith? The law comes first, we have to see the need before we accept the solution. Without the law we would have no knowledge of our sinfulness.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
In these verses Paul shares with us the results of us receiving the same promise that Abraham did in this dispensation and shows once again Abraham’s seed was not determined by the law, but by those who had faith, just like Abraham!
Next time I want to deal with James 2 and look at what James was teaching when he said Abraham was saved by works, and what did James mean when he said faith without works is dead. Does this conflict with Paul’s teachings or is James talking about something else, something different than Paul was?
Is this discussion only between Jerry and myself? If it is I may stop, it was never my goal to win Jerry, over, but rather to use scriptures to Challenge his teaching that some saints are saved by faith+works. I have done that so both sides can be seen, if this topic is not interesting to any one else, I may now stop. Let me know if there is an one wanting to see it continue.
In Christ,
Jim
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 22:17:46
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Hi Jim,
#4
Deuteronomy chapter 6
"25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us."
To me this means that if they did the commandments it would be their righteousness.
What does this verse mean to you?
In Christ,
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 00:09:04
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Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
Boy it kind of looks like they blew that one didn't they? they did about as good with that as Adam did with don't eat that fruit!
Apparently they had a few problems with:
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
And maybe a problem with:
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
I would be willing to bet that if they would have observed to do all those commandments, it would have shown their righteousness, but I bet they are glad they could have their faith counted as righteousness, like their Father Abraham.
Jerry, please tell me, how well you think "if we observe to do all these commandments" worked out for Israel? Do you think any of them did that?
By the way, is your number three talking about spiritual or physical death? What does the context say according to you?
In Christ,
Jim |
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jpourcy
USA
907 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 07:10:39
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Hi Jim,
My goal here is to get you to tell me what the verses mean to you. I did not ask you to explain why they mean that to you but rather just what they mean to you.
The scriptures that I am giving you go against your belief. You have been avoiding them from the very beginning.
You are taking your belief from the doctrine given to Paul for the dispensation of grace and applying it to all time. There are many, many scriptures that contridict your belief and I have told you this many, many times but you continue to refuse to acknowledge this.
You asked me to prove where you went wrong. I have told you many times that you do not believe the bible means what it says. You are taking the scriptures that back up your belief and continue to use them and say, "Take them at face value", but when we get to scriptures that go against your belief you tell me that they don't mean what they say.
You do not really want me to prove you wrong do you?
I have many more scriptures to cover one at a time to prove to you that you do not believe the bible means what it says.
You are going to have to either believe what you believe or you are going to have to believe what the bible says, it's your choice.
If you do not want to continue covering these scriptures that go against your belief let me know now and this conversation will be over between you and me.
But if you want me to continue, I will be going over these scriptures to prove to you that you do not believe the bible means what it says, for this is where the problem is.
If you are going to refuse to tell me what they mean to you then I will not be posting on this topic anymore.
I already know what Paul's scriptures say, I've been teaching them for almost 30 years. But I also know what the other scriptures say and many times they do not match. The doctrine outside of the dispensation of grace does not match the doctrine for the dispensation of grace. All you have to do is believe the bible means what it says and you will be able to see that.
Do you want me to continue showing you where you went wrong or do you want me to stop?
In Christ,
Jerry |
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vanschoonhoven
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 12:08:58
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Jerry, I am sorry, but I disagree that these scriptures have gone againist what Paul taught about times past. You call reading them in context trying to explain them away, I call it trying to understand what they are really saying. I agree some of the scriptures I have been using were given to Paul, but does that mean that some of them did not apply to all men.
For example in Romans Chapter 3 the context concerns the sinfulness of all man was not a dispensational truth, if it was the Christ did not need to die, because some would have been saved without His death.
The same with the penalty for sin, it has always been death, read Genesis, God said if they ate they would die. Their spiritual death, which means seperation happen the day they ate, and their physical deaths came later.
Your unwillingness to believe the sinfulness of sin in all ages, does not allow you to see the condition that was given to the OT saints, for example your last scripture:
Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
That little if is a huge word, did they do the if??? Of course not, that is why Paul tells us Abraham was saved by faith and so are the Jews, if they believe, and so are the Gentiles if they believe. The law was like a huge hammer, it was meant for Israel to break themselves up on it, so they would accept salvation by faith. It was meant to take every ounce of self-righteousness out of them and leave them with only one thing, believing God.
That little if would have ruled out King David, from being righteous, but look what King David said:
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the man to whom God accounts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7 "Blessed are they whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins were covered over;
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall by no means impute sin." Rom 4:9 Does this blessing then come upon the circumcision, or also upon the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Just because Paul writes something it does not mean he is not accurately talking about other dispensations. In Romans 2-3 Paul gives us a lot of information about the time before this dispensation of Grace, was he wrong, or are you wrong? Were all found guilty by the law or not? In Romans 4 Paul gives us a lot of information about Abraham, he is right and you are wrong, in chapter 5 Paul gives us alot of in formation about Adam, and again it is correct information.
Right division is understanding that when Paul tell us that Abraham was saved by grace, faith and without works, he knows what he is talking about.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the reward is not accounted according to grace but according to debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the man to whom God accounts righteousness apart from works:
So far you have shown a misunderstanding of the purpose of the law, both according to what Paul says it's purpose was and according to the purpose that was given when the law itself was given. In fact, have you even studied what God said the purpose of the law was when he gave it to Israel. Does God say have faith plus do these works and you will be saved? I could never find anything even close to that, but I did find a different reason given.
You are not the first to make this mistake, I believed just like you are teaching for 32 years. Some one had to point out that I had made assumptions that I did not prove from scriptures, such as the purpose of the law, was to provide Israel with a means of salvation, by faith and doing the law, they challenged me to find where God revealed any such thing, they also showed me what God revealed to Paul about the purpose of the law, and about the salvation of Abraham and I raised the same objections, you have about the rich man and Christ,and Jaes and many others, but then they showed me the text did not teach what I thought it taught, I was amazed, because as I started to check out every place where I thought the scriptures taught the OT saints were saved by the law and faith, it didn't actually say that, I had been reading that back into the verses.
I had to decide, since I was a teacher, was I going to admit that I was wrong, or try to cover it up or pretend like the problem wasn't real, it was a stuggle, I am a prideful sinner, but God forced me to give up and admit my errors.
My purpose has not been to get you to change your point of view, but rather to show what I believe the scriptures teach. I assume you are doing the same thng. I just want others to know they need to really search the scriptures for themselves and see if they teach what teachers say they do or not.
This is not a dispensational issue, and in fact I believe more mid-acts teachers agree that salvation has always been by grace, through faith, but the important thing is what does the scriptures teach.
Jerry it is up to you, if you want to continue, but I may not answer any more of your remarks until you actually deal with the scriptures we have already talked about plus Romans and Gal., but I may deal with other scriptures such as James 2, believers have a right to know why I see no conflict with what James 2 teaches and what, Paul teaches in Romans 4 and Gal 3.
You have provided this whole section and devoted it to Challenges, I think that is a great idea, I know that you believe in the truthfulness of the scriptures, and you believe that as long as others use the scriptures, they should be allowed to share their beliefs about the those scriptures. I am sure you also believe, the truth comes out, only by studying the scriptures, and that includes not only the scriptures we agree with but also those that might disagree with what we think is true. We need to study to show ourselves approved. I am thankful for this challenge section.
We have both kept to the KJV only as our authority, we have presented our ideas and both have tried to back them up with scriptures, we disagree, but at least on my part, there is no doubt in my mind that you love Christ, and believe in Him.
Thanks for providing a place for such a challenge!
In Christ,
Jim
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Saints of all ages saved by grace
